Ben Affleck Vs. The Great Bill Maher/Sam Harris Muslim Bash-Off
On Friday night, Maher and Harris bashed liberals using the same “race card” strawman that conservatives use on President Obama’s supporters, in this case by asserting that “every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people,” in much the same way that conservatives assert that any opposition to Obama draws accusations of racism. Neither of these things is true. What is a little bigoted is conflating certain rigid beliefs and practices to something call “the Muslim world.” That’s the same world that has a female fighter pilot raining death on the ISASsholes who torture and murder women. Does she just have a defective Koran?
Affleck kind of calls him out by asking Harris if he’s the authority on the “codified doctrine” of the Muslim religion, which is, in reality, as diverse as that of Christianity, if not more so. What’s really important to note here, though, is what Harris identifies as the problem…READ MORE
Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: Tommy Christopher
Tommy Christopher is The Daily Banter's White House Correspondent and Political Analyst. He's been a political reporter and liberal commentator since 2007, and has covered the White House since the beginning of the Obama administration, first for PoliticsDaily, and then for Mediaite. Christopher is a frequent guest on a variety of television, radio, and online programs, and was the villain in the documentaries The Audacity of Democracy and Hating Breitbart. He's also That Guy Who Live-Tweeted His Own Heart Attack, and the only person to have ever received public apologies from both Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.
133 responses to Ben Affleck Vs. The Great Bill Maher/Sam Harris Muslim Bash-Off
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tiredoftea October 4th, 2014 at 21:57
The problem is that we think that we are the center of the world’s affairs and interests. We are not. But, it is a maniacal obsession of the right, and a problem for the left, as we see here.
raincheck October 5th, 2014 at 04:45
Nail on the head!!
Mainah October 5th, 2014 at 10:34
Yes, people on the right keep railing on about how we aren’t in the middle of every other country’s affairs. I’m sick of it. That doesn’t make us exceptional. When our own society is crumbling, our citizens living in poverty for the sake of the few elite, we have no business saying we’re exceptional. We don’t behave in a manner that would warrant that word, unless you want to use it like this:
Exceptionally arrogant, exceptionally greedy or exceptionally ignorant, then sure. Until we realize that intruding on other Country’s because it’s “beneficial” to us is wrong, we fail at exceptionalism. We did nothing in Rwhanda. We’ve done nothing in Somalia. Oh, right, there’s no oil there. When we think that no other Country can be exceptional beside us, we fail. But I digress.
tiredoftea October 4th, 2014 at 21:57
The problem is that we think that we are the center of the world’s affairs and interests. We are not. But, it is a maniacal obsession of the right, and a problem for the left, as we see here.
raincheck October 5th, 2014 at 04:45
Nail on the head!!
Mainah October 5th, 2014 at 10:34
Yes, people on the right keep railing on about how we aren’t in the middle of every other country’s affairs. I’m sick of it. That doesn’t make us exceptional. When our own society is crumbling, our citizens living in poverty for the sake of the few elite, we have no business saying we’re exceptional. We don’t behave in a manner that would warrant that word, unless you want to use it like this:
Exceptionally arrogant, exceptionally greedy or exceptionally ignorant, then sure. Until we realize that intruding on other Country’s because it’s “beneficial” to us is wrong, we fail at exceptionalism. We did nothing in Rwhanda. We’ve done nothing in Somalia. Oh, right, there’s no oil there. When we think that no other Country can be exceptional beside us, we fail. But I digress.
StoneyCurtisll October 4th, 2014 at 23:01
Personally, I have no use for religion…
Of any sort.
But to each his own..
Be it bronze age mythology or new age Scientology..
Just dont force your bull sh!t on me.
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker October 5th, 2014 at 02:32
You got something against talking snakes and guys living inside of whales?…..:)
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 10:20
Stick your hand in this box of rattle snakes, you know, as a test of faith..;)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zenzoneforum.com%2Fattachment.php%253Fattachmentid%253D19744%2526d%253D1350425480&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zenzoneforum.com%2Fthreads%2F23846-Giant-Snake-Eats-Security-Guard&h=450&w=625&tbnid=5j69Sc9xo3Q2cM%3A&zoom=1&docid=tcuJVl4sqV_K7M&ei=dFMxVM-CCMe3yAT024KIDQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CDUQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=732&page=1&start=0&ndsp=12
StoneyCurtisll October 4th, 2014 at 23:01
Personally, I have no use for religion…
Of any sort.
But to each his own..
Be it bronze age mythology or new age Scientology..
Just dont force your bull sh!t on me.
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker October 5th, 2014 at 02:32
You got something against talking snakes and guys living inside of whales?…..:)
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 10:20
Stick your hand in this box of rattle snakes, you know, as a test of faith..;)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zenzoneforum.com%2Fattachment.php%253Fattachmentid%253D19744%2526d%253D1350425480&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zenzoneforum.com%2Fthreads%2F23846-Giant-Snake-Eats-Security-Guard&h=450&w=625&tbnid=5j69Sc9xo3Q2cM%3A&zoom=1&docid=tcuJVl4sqV_K7M&ei=dFMxVM-CCMe3yAT024KIDQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CDUQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=732&page=1&start=0&ndsp=12
An American in Canada October 5th, 2014 at 00:57
Maher and Harris had a valid point. It has nothing to do with bigotry but there are a vast number of Muslims who believe you should be punished for leaving the religion, drawing the image of Mohammed, being gay or basically being a woman. They may not want to strap bombs on their chests but the hatred is still there.
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker October 5th, 2014 at 02:50
“there are a vast number of Muslims who believe you should be punished for leaving the religion”…..is that like a vast number of Christians who believe you are an evil heathen for not beholding to their particular ‘sky daddy’ whilst killing medical practitioners such as Dr.Tiller?
I grew up watching Catholics and Protestants murder each other in Northern Ireland as well as seeing Jews and Palestinians kill each other for bloody decades.
Religion is a scourge on mankind.
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 05:18
“.is that like a vast number of Christians who believe you are an evil heathen…”
Not even close. Become an apostate once a muslim, and their punishment is the death penalty.
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 14:06
It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs, grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us. What made the Christian crusades and inquisitions more righteous than a jihad? Was George Bush correct in referring to the Iraq invasion as a crusade, striking fear and terror into the hearts of Muslims who know full well the slaughter endured by Jews, Kurds and Muslims at the hands of Christians long ago?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 16:11
“It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs,
grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us.”
Well now, it seems we are both amazed… it amazes me when someone gets sarcastic about a person w/out knowing anything at all about that person.
Do you have any knowledge at all how long I’ve studied the islamic religion, or at all? Do you have any knowledge at all how long it has been part of my career, or part of it at all? Do you have any knowledge at all how long I’ve lived in islamic country(ies), or at all?
I’m more than happy to share any information I have w/people when they post a question that is meant to further a civil conversation and/or debate. But when a post is meant to just be argumentative and insulting, I usually hold my own counsel.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 16:33
“It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs,
grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us.”
________
That’s exactly what my brother-in law, a Hindu from India who lives and works in Dubai says.
(Although he adds, that “It’s amazing how many Europeans and Americans have never been 10 km outside of their own villages who are suddenly Islamic scholars).
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 18:25
Have you studied the Quran? I haven’t, but I’m sure it’s teachings mirror the teachings in the bible. Maybe you can quote a passage in the Quran where they specifically say that punishment for non believers is death. Then I’ll show you what the bible says the punishment should be for adulterers, those who work on the sabbath and those who don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 19:22
No, they do not ‘mirror’ the teachings of the Bible, esp the new testament.
“Then I’ll show you what the bible says the punishment should be for
adulterers, those who work on the sabbath and those who don’t believe
that Jesus is the son of God.”
Please do, using the new testament.
If using the old testament(mostly jewish aspects then), please include how many beheadings and stonings have happened in israel since 1947.
Now lets list how many in iran, since, oh, just from 1980 on up.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 19:37
Actually, RJ Rushdooney and the other Reconstructionists believe in Old Testament law. (including stoning).
What makes us different is the Separation of church and state.
And by the way, we have consistently nurtured and supported radical Islam over secular governments as a hedge against “communism”.
Indians, (whom we considered in the “Soviet sphere”), who grew up in the 50’s, say they were so jealous of Pakistan because they had all the American stuff, while India was still following Ghandi’s “Home spun cloth only”, edict.
It seems that India was nurturing secular democracy while Pakistan was nurturing rot….. but they were good for American business.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 21:01
and the RJ sect has how many followers, as a % of entire christianity?
But, feel free to try to justify beheading, flogging, prison time and such for adultry, leaving a faith, being gay, being outside w/out head covering…
What I noticed is many can not discuss islam, on its own. The simple fact is today’s christianity, buddism, hinduism, judaism is not as controlling or violent as a large portion is islam followers.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 21:26
and the RJ sect has how many followers, as a % of entire christianity?
_______
1) It doesn’t matter, Reconstructionism may be bigger than we know. (Look up Seven Mountains Dominionism).
The main point is that there but for a secular government go we.
2) Nobody is justifying any of the above. (although the Hindus would say the same to believers of the death penalty and the Jains would same the same to carnivores.)
3) My husband is from India, they live and work with many Muslims, many of whom taunt readers of English speaking Pakistani newspapers, in the comment section, (I recommend that anyone who wants to know what actual Muslims say read it) about the evils of a religious republic.
I just know a very different crowd of Muslims to paint all with the brush of the radicals, ( whom the west helped to grow…. remember that the Brits chose to support the Wahabis over the Ottomans, which is part of why they rule today.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 21:36
“may be bigger than we know”… I can’t base an opinion on may be and I have to deal w/the now of things.
I’m by no means painting all muslims in any way, nor christians nor any other group is pure 1 way or another(good only or bad only). I am however pointing out the numbers, which aren’t in the hundreds, or thousands, but in the millions upon millions.
“Pakistani newspapers, in the comment section, (I recommend that anyone who wants to know what actual Muslims say read it”
I suggest one also read papers & listen to radio of saudi arabia, iran, malaysia, afghanistan, sub-saharan afrika and many others to get a more comprehensive viewpoint.
OldLefty October 7th, 2014 at 06:15
They are NOT millions upon millions, although much of the world said the same about the KKK.
They were also wrong.
As for newspaper, I agree. That and connections to the people (again, marriage and working in large medical centers) is from where my opinion forms.
Spirit of America October 7th, 2014 at 22:08
“They are NOT millions upon millions”
Actually, yes, it is in the millions. 10% really is a low-end estimate.
Have you ever seen video footage of cities around the ME when the 9/11 event hit the news there? Thousands poured into the street in celebration, thousands upon thousands. Literally. Where as most had nothing what so ever to do with the event, many many supported it.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 07:14
They are NOT millions upon millions. One has to cherry pick to achieve those numbers, AND cherry pick in certain nations.
As for video footage of cities around the ME when the 9/11….
Meaning in the Palestinian territories.
Did you see the footage of the candlelight vigils, in Tehran?
Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?
Bottom line is everyone knows, including many in the Islamic world, that that there has to be a reformation.
My problem is that I think as we helped to nurture and empower the development of radical Islam, we often impede the reformation more than we facilitate it.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 10:15
“They are NOT millions upon million”
I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. Pew research is latest comprehensive study backed up by spot western intel assessments, 35 countries, 85,000+ participants. The research and companion studies didn’t just cover sharia law, but to what degree would one help, aide or assist jihadists.
“Meaning in the Palestinian territories.”
No, don’t limit it to one geo-area. Find archive footage in egypt, iran, syria, etc. And not just us tv, it wasn’t there in many cities.
“Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?”
First, that is like comparing bonnie & clyde to a cop shooting bonnie & clyde. But still, show me footage of thousands turning out into us cities, british, autralian etc. cheering the deaths of civilians from that.
“My problem is that I think as we helped to nurture and empower the development of radical Islam, we often impede the reformation more than we facilitate it.”
There is some validity in that statement. My problem is when the western world gets all the blame and as if muslims are children bearing no responsibility for their own actions.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 12:29
I know the PEW poll, well, you are cherry picking the countries. (By the way, those countries that are the most radical are the countries in which we supported radical Islam.) You are mainly looking at Pakistan, Afghanistan and smaller number in the Middle East and Africa.
Limited to the Palestinian areas?
That was the only one that was confirmed.
And I suspect from the reactions of many here, if they were in the same situation, they would be the first ones cheering.
As for; “Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?”
We saw it in the 70% approval, (later turned to 75% DISAPPROVAL), and the “Kick Their A$$ and Take Their Gas” bumperstickers as hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died.
“First, that is like comparing bonnie & clyde to a cop shooting bonnie & clyde”?????
Not at all.
It’s like the cops shooting the bum down the street for the crimes of Bonnie and Clyde.
Western world only gets the blame when they keep making the same mistakes.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:04
I’m not ‘cherry’ picking anything, it is very comprehensive, especially if you look at the raw results and include other research.
“Limited to the Palestinian areas?
That was the only one that was confirmed.”
Not so at all. In fact, in 2012 IRIB ran a collage of them celebrating the anniversary. Do a lex/nex search.
“And I suspect from the reactions of many here, if they were in the same situation, they would be the first ones cheering.”
Speculation and not very accurate in my view. I’ve yet to see mass celebrations in usa over the death of a large civilian casualty event, not one.
“Not at all.
It’s like the cops shooting the bum down the street for the crimes of Bonnie and Clyde.”
Way off base. My comparison is accurate. You compared an act of war by a country to an act of terrorism aimed at civilians.
“Western world only gets the blame when they keep making the same mistakes.”
Not in my view, it is very consistent and sometimes w/out justification. I notice even you have yet to place any responsibility on them, just the usa.
Well, we see this differently and it was a good/civil conversation, but I have a feeling we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this topic… :)
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 13:41
it IS cherry picking.
You use the data from South Asia as though it represents all.
Not so at all. In fact, in 2012 IRIB ran a collage of them celebrating the anniversary. Do a lex/nex search.
__________
1) You have to give sources and attribution.
2) You would have to show that it is really any different than playing footage of , the murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi, and the 3 kids who burned down Gobind Sadan in New York, with footage of Anders Behring Breivik, over and over in Muslim countries as representative of America and the West. But, I’ll ask out Iranian jewish friend, because his parents live there and he has a very different view than many Americans.
You have yet to see mass celebrations, because we never do that. You see it in approval polls, and we would first have to see even remotely similar circumstances.
Get back to me when we have refugee camps because people were driven out of their homes by Palestinian or Egyptian bombs.
By the way do you know how many of those celebrating were Christians?
The first lebanese suicide bomber was a Christian female.
Your comparison is based upon the false premise that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, which it did not. To most of the world the war on Iraq WAS an act of terrorism, especially if YOU or your children were the civilians killed or maimed.
Plus, MY comparison, going after the wrong guy because you have an ulterior motive.
It was planned in the 90’s.
We ALL place blame on them.
I can only trey to account for my own elected officials, though, and I think we need to encourage reform, not discourage it.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:53
“:it IS cherry picking.
You use the data from South Asia as though it represents all.”
No, I didn’t, I cite the entire study to get the numbers, as well as other research.
“Get back to me when we have refugee camps because people were driven out of their homes by Palestinian or Egyptian bombs.”
Different topic, different situation, different group.
“Your comparison is based upon the false premise that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, which it did not”
I never said or hinted at that, you seem to be reading into my text what you want to see.
“We ALL place blame on them.”
On whom?
“I can only trey to account for my own elected officials, though, and I think we need to encourage reform, not discourage it.”
Agreed.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 14:10
The numbers everywhere else are low.
It’s not a different topic; the topic was many who are the most critical seem be very similar…enough that I bet their reaction would be the same if they were in the same situation.
“We ALL place blame on them.”
_______
On those who do the deeds.
We just can not forget that like Manto said in the 50’s (paraphrase), why not just arm the Mullahs directly? (as that’s basically what we were doing) , and as Benazir
Bhutto told George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a jihadi Frankenstein.”, and now act shocked and say, “How did THIS happen? and How did these people get so
radical??!!”
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 05:32
“The numbers everywhere else are low”
Low??!!
South Asia (median of 84%)
Middle East-North Africa region (median of 74%)
Southeast Asia median of (median of 77%)
sub-Saharan Africa (median of 64%)
Southern/ Eastern Europe (median of 18%)
Central Asia (median of 12%)
Now add up the muslim populations, apply those %’s and you have 10’s millions upon 10’s of millions. That’s not ‘low’ to most.
“and as Benazir Bhutto told George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a
jihadi Frankenstein.”, and now act shocked and say, “How did THIS
happen? and How did these people get so
radical??!!”
The modern day jihadist/caliphate movement started in the early 1900’s, well before H.W. Bush was around politically.
OldLefty October 9th, 2014 at 06:36
Southeast Asia 27%, Central Asia 16%, and Southern and Eastern Europe, 13%
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 07:23
You skipped a few, the higher ones :)
But, like I said, now add up the numbers, that’s the real picture.
Kind of like if I say only 2% of the usa population wants to kill me… 2% = 6+ MILLION people… that would be a lot who want to kill me, no?
OldLefty October 9th, 2014 at 08:11
I had to go back , way back to the original dialogue.
The point was “radicals”.
I maintain that it is the minority of the entire Muslim population, (Ask the Indian Hindus who live and work in the Gulf), while I fear that the anti-Muslim fervor here plays into the hands of the radicals.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 14:26
And in case you missed it, I’m sure you will enjoy the Bollywood actress, Veena Malik telling off the Mullah;
http://boingboing.net/2011/03/21/pakistani-actress-ve.html
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 20:40
In other words, you want me to only pick the parts in the bible that portray Christians in a good light and ignore the rest.
But,
it’s okay for you to pick only the bad parts in the Quran, ignoring the rest, and use it to bash the whole religion.
That is wrong. You can’t judge a whole religion on the actions of a few fundamentalists. It would be like me saying all Christians are evil because folks like Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton and Jimmy Swaggart, who make wildly innacurate statements with regard to the teachings of Jesus, are spokesmen for the entire faith.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 20:56
Your other words are incorrect as to what I said & mean.
“You can’t judge a whole religion on the actions of a few fundamentalists”
True enough, and I never said otherwise.
However, be careful when you say ‘few’…(read carefully the pew 2013 research). And even if one uses the pc number of ‘only 10% are radical’, that means there are over 140 million radicals, almost 1/2 of us population…
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 21:32
“Your other words are incorrect as to what I said & mean”
“True enough, and I never said otherwise.”
So when you said. “Become an apostate once a muslim, and their punishment is the death penalty.”, I assumed you had proof to back up this claim. My mistake.
“However, be careful when you say ‘few’..”
I said a few and I meant a few. However, if you want to talk statistics, more Jews, Muslims and Kurds have died at the hands of Christians, fighting in the name of their god, than the other way around.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 22:04
“I assumed you had proof to back up this claim. My mistake.” There is plenty of videoed proof of it happening, in several different countries. So yes, it is your mistake.
“I said a few and I meant a few.”
Millions upon millions to me is not a few.
“Jews, Muslims and Kurds have died at the hands of Christians, fighting in the name of their god, than the other way around.”
Now my turn: prove it, show me hard numbers rather than a made up justification to defend beheadings and stonings, outlawing being gay, women suppression et al.
Not only that, maybe we should focus a bit more on the here and now, who is in what frame of civility, then focusing on hundreds of years ago, no?
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 23:04
I made no mistake because you still haven’t shown me proof to back up your claim that becoming an apostate from the Muslim faith means the death penalty.
“Now my turn: prove it,…”
There are plenty of history books and documentaries that explain the crusades and the destruction left in their wake.
“…maybe we should focus a bit more on the here and now,…”
Do you think this is something new? They’ve been beheading, stoning and suppressing women for centuries. Why all the concern now, after all this time? What do you suggest we do?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 23:30
Here’s your proof:
Meriam Yahya Ibrahim was given the death penalty just recently and ONLY cause of world wide pressure & usa, was released. That is this year by the way. So is in saudi arabia, for apostasy/black majic, man was beheaded this august.
“Do you think this is something new?”
Noooooo, nothing new. My point is for folks to use the crusades to justify a different religions behavior is asinine, period.
“Why all the concern now, after all this time?”
LOL LOL, where as I won’t tell you my age, I will say I haven’t been around since the founding of islam and since I live in the here and now, now is when I can voice my concern, no?
The topic of this article is islam and a conversation some folks had on tv about it. Not christianity, not baseball, not history. Simply islam and its current state, in the here and now. My personal belief is that if a person has to bring in other topics to justify something, then maybe the original critique has something to it.
Bunya October 7th, 2014 at 10:25
“Meriam Yahya Ibrahim…”
I make it a policy to not judge a whole religion on the actions of one. But that’s just me.
“…use the crusades to justify a different religions behavior is asinine, period.”
Those who don’t learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
“… now is when I can voice my concern, no?”
Sure, if it satisfies you to concern yourself with something that has been going on for centuries, it’s okay by me.
“Simply islam and its current state, in the here and now”
I agree. And you’re free to hate anybody you want. On the other hand, I’m free to tell you you’re wrong.
” My personal belief is that if a person has to bring in other topics to justify something”
LOL. Then you may want to take a look in the mirror. If you need proof, just let me know.
Spirit of America October 7th, 2014 at 21:49
“I make it a policy to not judge a whole religion on the actions of one. But that’s just me.”
You asked for proof, I gave you 2 recent events, and not by just ‘one’, but by nations. Now do some research, check how many other nations has that and such laws on the books and use them. And imprisoning gays, stonings, etc.
“Those who don’t learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.”
There is a difference between learning from something and using it to justify bad behavior. For some reason you want to ‘overlook’ the subjugation of women, persecution of gays, beheadings of civilians to make a political point. I don’t.
“Sure, if it satisfies you to concern yourself with something that has been going on for centuries, it’s okay by me.”
LOL, Now there is a good reason to let bad behavior continue….
“And you’re free to hate anybody you want. On the other hand, I’m free to tell you you’re wrong.”
Hate wasn’t brought into this, until you brought it in. But I’d rather hate bad behavior than condone it as you do in this case.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 10:36
” And imprisoning gays, stonings, etc”
So you’d rather sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in another war because you want to change something that’s been going on for thousands of years.
“For some reason you want to ‘overlook’ the subjugation of women, persecution of gays, beheadings of civilians to make a political point. I don’t..”
I prefer tolerance to showing disdain for Muslims under the guise of feigning concern for their well-being.
“LOL, Now there is a good reason to let bad behavior continue…”
If it makes you feel better to think of avoiding war at all cost as “letting bad behavior continue”, then I can live with that.
“But I’d rather hate bad behavior than condone it as you do in this case.”
I prefer condoning bad behavior that has occurred, and will continue to occur, for thousands of years, in lieu of slaughtering more innocent people in a religious war. But hey! If you’re so hell bent on killing Musl, er, “changing centuries old bad behavior”, be my guest. Start your own army, go to the middle east, and kill to your heart’s desire.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 11:41
“So you’d rather sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in another war because you want to change something that’s been going on for thousands of years.”
Using fallacy of the excluded middle to make a point? It is not an either/or problem.
“I prefer tolerance to showing disdain for Muslims under the guise of feigning concern for their well-being.”
‘Tolerance’ for beheadings/stonings, the slaughter of thousands on a regular basis, the destruction of centries-old structures just because they represent another religion, flying planes into civilian buildings, taking bomb-vests onto school buses, using children to clear mine fields…
That’s not ‘tolerance’, that is appeasement and hiding.
“If it makes you feel better to think of avoiding war at all cost as “letting bad behavior continue”, then I can live with that.”
You’re not ‘avoiding war at all cost’, you are not fighting back; the war is already going on. You are curling into a fetal position while being kicked.
“Start your own army, go to the middle east, and kill to your heart’s desire.”
Interesting… that is already what they did and are doing, killing to their heart’s content.
You talk(type) about avoiding thousands of innocents dying.. they already are, that’s the problem, it is already happening. Pacifism is great when all others are pacifist as well.
It was a good discussion, I enjoyed it.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 12:36
“‘Tolerance’ for beheadings/stonings”
Same type of barbarism is happening in Africa and has been for years. Funny how our “concern” is limited to only those living in the middle east (or wherever oil is prevalent) .
“Interesting… that is already what they did and are doing, killing to their heart’s content.”
So if you think bloodshed is the answer, then feel free to travel to the middle east and prove you’re just as good, if not better, than them at killing to your heart’s content.
“That’s not ‘tolerance’, that is appeasement and hiding.”
Maybe. But I prefer “appeasement and hiding” to attacking and killing. Then again, I’m a pacifist. That’s what we do.
“You are curling into a fetal position while being kicked.”
Perhaps, but I prefer to consider what Jesus would have done in the same situation. Seems He and I think alike.
“You talk(type) about avoiding thousands of innocents dying.. they already are, that’s the problem,…”
I understand that, but you can’t stop violence by utilizing more violence.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:18
“Same type of barbarism is happening in Africa and has been for years.
Funny how our “concern” is limited to only those living in the middle
east (or wherever oil is prevalent) .”
I don’t know who ‘our’ is, but I’ve harping on the several slaughters/civil wars going on for several years now, going back to the 90’s.
“So if you think bloodshed is the answer, then feel free to travel to the middle east and prove you’re just as good, if not better, than them at killing to your heart’s content.”
Sometimes bloodshed is the answer, period. And you strike me as being a bit ‘sick’ thinking that it is a matter of a heart being content by killing, that’s actually kind of a gross thought.
“Then again, I’m a pacifist. That’s what we do”
True enough and I respect those that have that view. I just wish it was reciprocal and pacifists respected those that keep them free to have that view.
” Seems He and I think alike.”
I’m not sure He became sarcastic and insulting when talking with others…
“I understand that, but you can’t stop violence by utilizing more violence.”
In some cases, it is the only way to stop violence. From the individual assault to a more national scale.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 13:47
“And you strike me as being a bit ‘sick’ thinking that it is a matter of a heart being content by killing, that’s actually kind of a gross thought.”
I actually prefer to be accused of being “sick” or having “gross thoughts” of peace by someone who thinks “bloodshed is the answer, period.” Thank you for the compliment.
“I just wish it was reciprocal and pacifists respected those that keep them free to have that view.”
Oh but we do. But unnecessary wars (VietNam, Iraq) don’t sit as well with us pacifists as it does with the warhawks. And having soldiers and civilians slaughtered in religious wars and wars for profit is what we consider “sick” and “gross”. Sorry.
“I’m not sure He became sarcastic and insulting when talking with others…”
I’m sure you’re correct, and that’s one of the reasons why I admire Him – along with His teachings of “turn the other cheek” and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
“In some cases, it is the only way to stop violence.”
I disagree, but then again, I prefer peace to war.
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 05:09
My Disuss is back!(sorry for delay answering)
“I actually prefer to be accused of being “sick” or having “gross thoughts” of peace”
Ahhh, you switched what I said was sick… not thoughts of peace but you said “kill to your heart’s content”, that was what is a bit sick in thought, my view.
“Oh but we do.”
Maybe you do, but I have yet to see it expressed.
“I disagree, but then again, I prefer peace to war.”
If it is a preference, we agree. But real life intrudes at times.
Do you honestly, honestly, think anything but war would have gotten hitler to give up his conquests, or tojo? Do you honestly think if the usa were to announce today that by year 2016 we would completely disband our military we would continue to exist as a nation?
Bunya October 9th, 2014 at 11:22
“…but you said ‘kill to your heart’s content’, that was what is a bit sick in thought, my view.”
Somebody who prefers to start wars, now, over something that’s been tolerated for thousands of years, strikes me as someone who promotes and advocates aggression rather than peaceful resolutions.
“Maybe you do, but I have yet to see it expressed”
War hawks usually don’t see that which is right in front of them.
“Do you honestly, honestly, think anything but war would have gotten hitler to give up his conquests, or tojo?”
Some wars ARE necessary, I agree, but only as a last resort. We shouldn’t be a country known for our jingoism. That is not an admirable quality. It makes us look like nothing more than schoolyard bullies. Take time to listen to the republicans . They’re just not happy unless we’re bombing someone.
Now, if you want to end the ages old beheadings, stonings and killings perpetrated in theocratic countries, then by all means, start another crusade. I’m sure the Vatican and your fellow Christians will be more than happy to assist you. Just don’t ask this country to become embroiled in another war. It is not fair to us who despise violence.
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 13:35
“Somebody who prefers to start wars, now, over something that’s been
tolerated for thousands of years, strikes me as someone who promotes and
advocates aggression rather than peaceful resolutions.”
But that doesn’t at all address your promoting someone to kill until content.
“War hawks usually don’t see that which is right in front of them.”
That may or may not be true for them, but I haven’t seen it either. Show me 3 previous posts from self-determined pacifists that posted that. Or even major newspaper editorials.
“Some wars ARE necessary, I agree, but only as a last resort.”
And there you have it, we agree on a major point in this discussion.
” I’m sure the Vatican and your fellow Christians will be more than happy to assist you.”
Never said I was christian.
“Just don’t ask this country to become embroiled in another war. It is not fair to us who despise violence.”
They declared war on us, many times in writing and in action.
As for fair, besides life itself not being fair, it’s as fair as asking a nation to curl into a ball and hope the planes hit other buildings besides ‘theirs’, to ask a nation to accept constant attacks and not fight back to stop it.
mea_mark October 6th, 2014 at 18:52
Have you read this? http://lettertobaghdadi.com/
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 19:02
excellent post. Thanks.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 19:13
Yes, I did when it came out for their community leaders to read/endorse.
Now, how many didn’t sign it?
mea_mark October 6th, 2014 at 20:25
In America, I bet nearly everyone that it was presented to, to sign, signed it. If you mean how many didn’t sign it because they had no opportunity, is that important?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 20:51
You’d lose the bet. Dig a little… when it was written, when it was going to be first released, why it was delayed.
Skydog2 October 5th, 2014 at 08:29
You are f###ing crazy if you believe a vast number of Christians support the killing of Dr. Tiller.
There’s no comparison between Christians who say non-believers won’t go to heaven and Muslims who want to stone you for leaving their religion.
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 09:36
“not go to heaven”…
AKA Burn in a sea of fire for eternity..(and other nasty mythological tortures)..
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 10:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgvUaOuEdwA
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 10:29
Some missed your point and used it to partake in Christianphobic activity, AKA insulting it merely to do so.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are pointing out the difference between saying something will happen to one in the future for disbelieving compared to actually ending one’s life for merely disbelieving, yes?
If so, I and most intelligent individuals agree with you, there is a difference; I might even say a major difference.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:54
intelligent??? yoiks.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:54
way off fella – the xians in the usa are no better than any other group of goofs who believe in the absurd.
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 12:07
I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t call my POTUS a ‘goof’ just because of his belief, which you have no proof is absurd btw, he’s actually very intelligent.
An American in Canada October 5th, 2014 at 00:57
Maher and Harris had a valid point. It has nothing to do with bigotry but there are a vast number of Muslims who believe you should be punished for leaving the religion, drawing the image of Mohammed, being gay or basically being a woman. They may not want to strap bombs on their chests but the hatred is still there.
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker October 5th, 2014 at 02:50
“there are a vast number of Muslims who believe you should be punished for leaving the religion”…..is that like a vast number of Christians who believe you are an evil heathen for not beholding to their particular ‘sky daddy’ whilst killing medical practitioners such as Dr.Tiller?
I grew up watching Catholics and Protestants murder each other in Northern Ireland as well as seeing Jews and Palestinians kill each other for bloody decades.
Religion is a scourge on mankind.
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 05:18
“.is that like a vast number of Christians who believe you are an evil heathen…”
Not even close. Become an apostate once a muslim, and their punishment is the death penalty.
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 14:06
It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs, grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us. What made the Christian crusades and inquisitions more righteous than a jihad? Was George Bush correct in referring to the Iraq invasion as a crusade, striking fear and terror into the hearts of Muslims who know full well the slaughter endured by Jews, Kurds and Muslims at the hands of Christians long ago?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 16:11
“It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs,
grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us.”
Well now, it seems we are both amazed… it amazes me when someone gets sarcastic about a person w/out knowing anything at all about that person.
Do you have any knowledge at all how long I’ve studied the islamic religion, or at all? Do you have any knowledge at all how long it has been part of my career, or part of it at all? Do you have any knowledge at all how long I’ve lived in islamic country(ies), or at all?
I’m more than happy to share any information I have w/people when they post a question that is meant to further a civil conversation and/or debate. But when a post is meant to just be argumentative and insulting, I usually hold my own counsel.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 16:33
“It amazes me how many scholars, expert in everything Islamic beliefs,
grace us with their infinite knowledge. Please enlighten us.”
________
That’s exactly what my brother-in law, a Hindu from India who lives and works in Dubai says.
(Although he adds, that “It’s amazing how many Europeans and Americans have never been 10 km outside of their own villages who are suddenly Islamic scholars).
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 18:25
Have you studied the Quran? I haven’t, but I’m sure it’s teachings mirror the teachings in the bible. Maybe you can quote a passage in the Quran where they specifically say that punishment for non believers is death. Then I’ll show you what the bible says the punishment should be for adulterers, those who work on the sabbath and those who don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 19:22
No, they do not ‘mirror’ the teachings of the Bible, esp the new testament.
“Then I’ll show you what the bible says the punishment should be for
adulterers, those who work on the sabbath and those who don’t believe
that Jesus is the son of God.”
Please do, using the new testament.
If using the old testament(mostly jewish aspects then), please include how many beheadings and stonings have happened in israel since 1947.
Now lets list how many in iran, since, oh, just from 1980 on up.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 19:37
Actually, RJ Rushdooney and the other Reconstructionists believe in Old Testament law. (including stoning).
What makes us different is the Separation of church and state.
And by the way, we have consistently nurtured and supported radical Islam over secular governments as a hedge against “communism”.
Indians, (whom we considered in the “Soviet sphere”), who grew up in the 50’s, say they were so jealous of Pakistan because they had all the American stuff, while India was still following Ghandi’s “Home spun cloth only”, edict.
It seems that India was nurturing secular democracy while Pakistan was nurturing rot….. but they were good for American business.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 21:01
and the RJ sect has how many followers, as a % of entire christianity?
But, feel free to try to justify beheading, flogging, prison time and such for adultry, leaving a faith, being gay, being outside w/out head covering…
What I noticed is many can not discuss islam, on its own. The simple fact is today’s christianity, buddism, hinduism, judaism is not as controlling or violent as a large portion is islam followers.
OldLefty October 6th, 2014 at 21:26
and the RJ sect has how many followers, as a % of entire christianity?
_______
1) It doesn’t matter, Reconstructionism may be bigger than we know. (Look up Seven Mountains Dominionism).
The main point is that there but for a secular government go we.
2) Nobody is justifying any of the above. (although the Hindus would say the same to believers of the death penalty and the Jains would same the same to carnivores.)
3) My husband is from India, they live and work with many Muslims, many of whom taunt readers of English speaking Pakistani newspapers, in the comment section, (I recommend that anyone who wants to know what actual Muslims say read it) about the evils of a religious republic.
I just know a very different crowd of Muslims to paint all with the brush of the radicals, ( whom the west helped to grow…. remember that the Brits chose to support the Wahabis over the Ottomans, which is part of why they rule today.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 21:36
“may be bigger than we know”… I can’t base an opinion on may be and I have to deal w/the now of things.
I’m by no means painting all muslims in any way, nor christians nor any other group is pure 1 way or another(good only or bad only). I am however pointing out the numbers, which aren’t in the hundreds, or thousands, but in the millions upon millions.
“Pakistani newspapers, in the comment section, (I recommend that anyone who wants to know what actual Muslims say read it”
I suggest one also read papers & listen to radio of saudi arabia, iran, malaysia, afghanistan, sub-saharan afrika and many others to get a more comprehensive viewpoint.
OldLefty October 7th, 2014 at 06:15
They are NOT millions upon millions, although much of the world said the same about the KKK.
They were also wrong.
As for newspaper, I agree. That and connections to the people (again, marriage and working in large medical centers) is from where my opinion forms.
Spirit of America October 7th, 2014 at 22:08
“They are NOT millions upon millions”
Actually, yes, it is in the millions. 10% really is a low-end estimate.
Have you ever seen video footage of cities around the ME when the 9/11 event hit the news there? Thousands poured into the street in celebration, thousands upon thousands. Literally. Where as most had nothing what so ever to do with the event, many many supported it.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 07:14
They are NOT millions upon millions. One has to cherry pick to achieve those numbers, AND cherry pick in certain nations.
As for video footage of cities around the ME when the 9/11….
Meaning in the Palestinian territories.
Did you see the footage of the candlelight vigils, in Tehran?
Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?
Bottom line is everyone knows, including many in the Islamic world, that that there has to be a reformation.
My problem is that I think as we helped to nurture and empower the development of radical Islam, we often impede the reformation more than we facilitate it.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 10:15
“They are NOT millions upon million”
I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. Pew research is latest comprehensive study backed up by spot western intel assessments, 35 countries, 85,000+ participants. The research and companion studies didn’t just cover sharia law, but to what degree would one help, aide or assist jihadists.
“Meaning in the Palestinian territories.”
No, don’t limit it to one geo-area. Find archive footage in egypt, iran, syria, etc. And not just us tv, it wasn’t there in many cities.
“Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?”
First, that is like comparing bonnie & clyde to a cop shooting bonnie & clyde. But still, show me footage of thousands turning out into us cities, british, autralian etc. cheering the deaths of civilians from that.
“My problem is that I think as we helped to nurture and empower the development of radical Islam, we often impede the reformation more than we facilitate it.”
There is some validity in that statement. My problem is when the western world gets all the blame and as if muslims are children bearing no responsibility for their own actions.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 12:29
I know the PEW poll, well, you are cherry picking the countries. (By the way, those countries that are the most radical are the countries in which we supported radical Islam.) You are mainly looking at Pakistan, Afghanistan and smaller number in the Middle East and Africa.
Limited to the Palestinian areas?
That was the only one that was confirmed.
And I suspect from the reactions of many here, if they were in the same situation, they would be the first ones cheering.
As for; “Did you see Americans celebrating Shock and Awe?”
We saw it in the 70% approval, (later turned to 75% DISAPPROVAL), and the “Kick Their A$$ and Take Their Gas” bumperstickers as hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died.
“First, that is like comparing bonnie & clyde to a cop shooting bonnie & clyde”?????
Not at all.
It’s like the cops shooting the bum down the street for the crimes of Bonnie and Clyde.
Western world only gets the blame when they keep making the same mistakes.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:04
I’m not ‘cherry’ picking anything, it is very comprehensive, especially if you look at the raw results and include other research.
“Limited to the Palestinian areas?
That was the only one that was confirmed.”
Not so at all. In fact, in 2012 IRIB ran a collage of them celebrating the anniversary. Do a lex/nex search.
“And I suspect from the reactions of many here, if they were in the same situation, they would be the first ones cheering.”
Speculation and not very accurate in my view. I’ve yet to see mass celebrations in usa over the death of a large civilian casualty event, not one.
“Not at all.
It’s like the cops shooting the bum down the street for the crimes of Bonnie and Clyde.”
Way off base. My comparison is accurate. You compared an act of war by a country to an act of terrorism aimed at civilians.
“Western world only gets the blame when they keep making the same mistakes.”
Not in my view, it is very consistent and sometimes w/out justification. I notice even you have yet to place any responsibility on them, just the usa.
Well, we see this differently and it was a good/civil conversation, but I have a feeling we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this topic… :)
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 13:41
it IS cherry picking.
You use the data from South Asia as though it represents all.
Not so at all. In fact, in 2012 IRIB ran a collage of them celebrating the anniversary. Do a lex/nex search.
__________
1) You have to give sources and attribution.
2) You would have to show that it is really any different than playing footage of , the murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi, and the 3 kids who burned down Gobind Sadan in New York, with footage of Anders Behring Breivik, over and over in Muslim countries as representative of America and the West. But, I’ll ask out Iranian jewish friend, because his parents live there and he has a very different view than many Americans.
You have yet to see mass celebrations, because we never do that. You see it in approval polls, and we would first have to see even remotely similar circumstances.
Get back to me when we have refugee camps because people were driven out of their homes by Palestinian or Egyptian bombs.
By the way do you know how many of those celebrating were Christians?
The first lebanese suicide bomber was a Christian female.
Your comparison is based upon the false premise that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, which it did not. To most of the world the war on Iraq WAS an act of terrorism, especially if YOU or your children were the civilians killed or maimed.
Plus, MY comparison, going after the wrong guy because you have an ulterior motive.
It was planned in the 90’s.
We ALL place blame on them.
I can only trey to account for my own elected officials, though, and I think we need to encourage reform, not discourage it.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:53
“:it IS cherry picking.
You use the data from South Asia as though it represents all.”
No, I didn’t, I cite the entire study to get the numbers, as well as other research.
“Get back to me when we have refugee camps because people were driven out of their homes by Palestinian or Egyptian bombs.”
Different topic, different situation, different group.
“Your comparison is based upon the false premise that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, which it did not”
I never said or hinted at that, you seem to be reading into my text what you want to see.
“We ALL place blame on them.”
On whom?
“I can only trey to account for my own elected officials, though, and I think we need to encourage reform, not discourage it.”
Agreed.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 14:10
The numbers everywhere else are low.
It’s not a different topic; the topic was many who are the most critical seem be very similar…enough that I bet their reaction would be the same if they were in the same situation.
“We ALL place blame on them.”
_______
On those who do the deeds.
We just can not forget that like Manto said in the 50’s (paraphrase), why not just arm the Mullahs directly? (as that’s basically what we were doing) , and as Benazir
Bhutto told George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a jihadi Frankenstein.”, and now act shocked and say, “How did THIS happen? and How did these people get so
radical??!!”
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 05:32
“The numbers everywhere else are low”
Low??!!
South Asia (median of 84%)
Middle East-North Africa region (median of 74%)
Southeast Asia median of (median of 77%)
sub-Saharan Africa (median of 64%)
Southern/ Eastern Europe (median of 18%)
Central Asia (median of 12%)
Now add up the muslim populations, apply those %’s and you have 10’s millions upon 10’s of millions. That’s not ‘low’ to most.
“and as Benazir Bhutto told George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a
jihadi Frankenstein.”, and now act shocked and say, “How did THIS
happen? and How did these people get so
radical??!!”
The modern day jihadist/caliphate movement started in the early 1900’s, well before H.W. Bush was around politically.
OldLefty October 9th, 2014 at 06:36
Southeast Asia 27%, Central Asia 16%, and Southern and Eastern Europe, 13%
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 07:23
You skipped a few, the higher ones :)
But, like I said, now add up the numbers, that’s the real picture.
Kind of like if I say only 2% of the usa population wants to kill me… 2% = 6+ MILLION people… that would be a lot who want to kill me, no?
OldLefty October 9th, 2014 at 08:11
I had to go back , way back to the original dialogue.
The point was “radicals”.
I maintain that it is the minority of the entire Muslim population, (Ask the Indian Hindus who live and work in the Gulf), while I fear that the anti-Muslim fervor here plays into the hands of the radicals.
OldLefty October 8th, 2014 at 14:26
And in case you missed it, I’m sure you will enjoy the Bollywood actress, Veena Malik telling off the Mullah;
http://boingboing.net/2011/03/21/pakistani-actress-ve.html
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 20:40
In other words, you want me to only pick the parts in the bible that portray Christians in a good light and ignore the rest.
But,
it’s okay for you to pick only the bad parts in the Quran, ignoring the rest, and use it to bash the whole religion.
That is wrong. You can’t judge a whole religion on the actions of a few fundamentalists. It would be like me saying all Christians are evil because folks like Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton and Jimmy Swaggart, who make wildly innacurate statements with regard to the teachings of Jesus, are spokesmen for the entire faith.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 20:56
Your other words are incorrect as to what I said & mean.
“You can’t judge a whole religion on the actions of a few fundamentalists”
True enough, and I never said otherwise.
However, be careful when you say ‘few’…(read carefully the pew 2013 research). And even if one uses the pc number of ‘only 10% are radical’, that means there are over 140 million radicals, almost 1/2 of us population…
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 21:32
“Your other words are incorrect as to what I said & mean”
“True enough, and I never said otherwise.”
So when you said. “Become an apostate once a muslim, and their punishment is the death penalty.”, I assumed you had proof to back up this claim. My mistake.
“However, be careful when you say ‘few’..”
I said a few and I meant a few. However, if you want to talk statistics, more Jews, Muslims and Kurds have died at the hands of Christians, fighting in the name of their god, than the other way around.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 22:04
“I assumed you had proof to back up this claim. My mistake.” There is plenty of videoed proof of it happening, in several different countries. So yes, it is your mistake.
“I said a few and I meant a few.”
Millions upon millions to me is not a few.
“Jews, Muslims and Kurds have died at the hands of Christians, fighting in the name of their god, than the other way around.”
Now my turn: prove it, show me hard numbers rather than a made up justification to defend beheadings and stonings, outlawing being gay, women suppression et al.
Not only that, maybe we should focus a bit more on the here and now, who is in what frame of civility, then focusing on hundreds of years ago, no?
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 23:04
I made no mistake because you still haven’t shown me proof to back up your claim that becoming an apostate from the Muslim faith means the death penalty.
“Now my turn: prove it,…”
There are plenty of history books and documentaries that explain the crusades and the destruction left in their wake.
“…maybe we should focus a bit more on the here and now,…”
Do you think this is something new? They’ve been beheading, stoning and suppressing women for centuries. Why all the concern now, after all this time? What do you suggest we do?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 23:30
Here’s your proof:
Meriam Yahya Ibrahim was given the death penalty just recently and ONLY cause of world wide pressure & usa, was released. That is this year by the way. So is in saudi arabia, for apostasy/black majic, man was beheaded this august.
“Do you think this is something new?”
Noooooo, nothing new. My point is for folks to use the crusades to justify a different religions behavior is asinine, period.
“Why all the concern now, after all this time?”
LOL LOL, where as I won’t tell you my age, I will say I haven’t been around since the founding of islam and since I live in the here and now, now is when I can voice my concern, no?
The topic of this article is islam and a conversation some folks had on tv about it. Not christianity, not baseball, not history. Simply islam and its current state, in the here and now. My personal belief is that if a person has to bring in other topics to justify something, then maybe the original critique has something to it.
Bunya October 7th, 2014 at 10:25
“Meriam Yahya Ibrahim…”
I make it a policy to not judge a whole religion on the actions of one. But that’s just me.
“…use the crusades to justify a different religions behavior is asinine, period.”
Those who don’t learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
“… now is when I can voice my concern, no?”
Sure, if it satisfies you to concern yourself with something that has been going on for centuries, it’s okay by me.
“Simply islam and its current state, in the here and now”
I agree. And you’re free to hate anybody you want. On the other hand, I’m free to tell you you’re wrong.
” My personal belief is that if a person has to bring in other topics to justify something”
LOL. Then you may want to take a look in the mirror. If you need proof, just let me know.
Spirit of America October 7th, 2014 at 21:49
“I make it a policy to not judge a whole religion on the actions of one. But that’s just me.”
You asked for proof, I gave you 2 recent events, and not by just ‘one’, but by nations. Now do some research, check how many other nations has that and such laws on the books and use them. And imprisoning gays, stonings, etc.
“Those who don’t learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.”
There is a difference between learning from something and using it to justify bad behavior. For some reason you want to ‘overlook’ the subjugation of women, persecution of gays, beheadings of civilians to make a political point. I don’t.
“Sure, if it satisfies you to concern yourself with something that has been going on for centuries, it’s okay by me.”
LOL, Now there is a good reason to let bad behavior continue….
“And you’re free to hate anybody you want. On the other hand, I’m free to tell you you’re wrong.”
Hate wasn’t brought into this, until you brought it in. But I’d rather hate bad behavior than condone it as you do in this case.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 10:36
” And imprisoning gays, stonings, etc”
So you’d rather sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in another war because you want to change something that’s been going on for thousands of years.
“For some reason you want to ‘overlook’ the subjugation of women, persecution of gays, beheadings of civilians to make a political point. I don’t..”
I prefer tolerance to showing disdain for Muslims under the guise of feigning concern for their well-being.
“LOL, Now there is a good reason to let bad behavior continue…”
If it makes you feel better to think of avoiding war at all cost as “letting bad behavior continue”, then I can live with that.
“But I’d rather hate bad behavior than condone it as you do in this case.”
I prefer condoning bad behavior that has occurred, and will continue to occur, for thousands of years, in lieu of slaughtering more innocent people in a religious war. But hey! If you’re so hell bent on killing Musl, er, “changing centuries old bad behavior”, be my guest. Start your own army, go to the middle east, and kill to your heart’s desire.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 11:41
“So you’d rather sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in another war because you want to change something that’s been going on for thousands of years.”
Using fallacy of the excluded middle to make a point? It is not an either/or problem.
“I prefer tolerance to showing disdain for Muslims under the guise of feigning concern for their well-being.”
‘Tolerance’ for beheadings/stonings, the slaughter of thousands on a regular basis, the destruction of centries-old structures just because they represent another religion, flying planes into civilian buildings, taking bomb-vests onto school buses, using children to clear mine fields…
That’s not ‘tolerance’, that is appeasement and hiding.
“If it makes you feel better to think of avoiding war at all cost as “letting bad behavior continue”, then I can live with that.”
You’re not ‘avoiding war at all cost’, you are not fighting back; the war is already going on. You are curling into a fetal position while being kicked.
“Start your own army, go to the middle east, and kill to your heart’s desire.”
Interesting… that is already what they did and are doing, killing to their heart’s content.
You talk(type) about avoiding thousands of innocents dying.. they already are, that’s the problem, it is already happening. Pacifism is great when all others are pacifist as well.
It was a good discussion, I enjoyed it.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 12:36
“‘Tolerance’ for beheadings/stonings”
Same type of barbarism is happening in Africa and has been for years. Funny how our “concern” is limited to only those living in the middle east (or wherever oil is prevalent) .
“Interesting… that is already what they did and are doing, killing to their heart’s content.”
So if you think bloodshed is the answer, then feel free to travel to the middle east and prove you’re just as good, if not better, than them at killing to your heart’s content.
“That’s not ‘tolerance’, that is appeasement and hiding.”
Maybe. But I prefer “appeasement and hiding” to attacking and killing. Then again, I’m a pacifist. That’s what we do.
“You are curling into a fetal position while being kicked.”
Perhaps, but I prefer to consider what Jesus would have done in the same situation. Seems He and I think alike.
“You talk(type) about avoiding thousands of innocents dying.. they already are, that’s the problem,…”
I understand that, but you can’t stop violence by utilizing more violence.
Spirit of America October 8th, 2014 at 13:18
“Same type of barbarism is happening in Africa and has been for years.
Funny how our “concern” is limited to only those living in the middle
east (or wherever oil is prevalent) .”
I don’t know who ‘our’ is, but I’ve harping on the several slaughters/civil wars going on for several years now, going back to the 90’s.
“So if you think bloodshed is the answer, then feel free to travel to the middle east and prove you’re just as good, if not better, than them at killing to your heart’s content.”
Sometimes bloodshed is the answer, period. And you strike me as being a bit ‘sick’ thinking that it is a matter of a heart being content by killing, that’s actually kind of a gross thought.
“Then again, I’m a pacifist. That’s what we do”
True enough and I respect those that have that view. I just wish it was reciprocal and pacifists respected those that keep them free to have that view.
” Seems He and I think alike.”
I’m not sure He became sarcastic and insulting when talking with others…
“I understand that, but you can’t stop violence by utilizing more violence.”
In some cases, it is the only way to stop violence. From the individual assault to a more national scale.
Bunya October 8th, 2014 at 13:47
“And you strike me as being a bit ‘sick’ thinking that it is a matter of a heart being content by killing, that’s actually kind of a gross thought.”
I actually prefer to be accused of being “sick” or having “gross thoughts” of peace by someone who thinks “bloodshed is the answer, period.” Thank you for the compliment.
“I just wish it was reciprocal and pacifists respected those that keep them free to have that view.”
Oh but we do. But unnecessary wars (VietNam, Iraq) don’t sit as well with us pacifists as it does with the warhawks. And having soldiers and civilians slaughtered in religious wars and wars for profit is what we consider “sick” and “gross”. Sorry.
“I’m not sure He became sarcastic and insulting when talking with others…”
I’m sure you’re correct, and that’s one of the reasons why I admire Him – along with His teachings of “turn the other cheek” and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
“In some cases, it is the only way to stop violence.”
I disagree, but then again, I prefer peace to war.
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 05:09
My Disuss is back!(sorry for delay answering)
“I actually prefer to be accused of being “sick” or having “gross thoughts” of peace”
Ahhh, you switched what I said was sick… not thoughts of peace but you said “kill to your heart’s content”, that was what is a bit sick in thought, my view.
“Oh but we do.”
Maybe you do, but I have yet to see it expressed.
“I disagree, but then again, I prefer peace to war.”
If it is a preference, we agree. But real life intrudes at times.
Do you honestly, honestly, think anything but war would have gotten hitler to give up his conquests, or tojo? Do you honestly think if the usa were to announce today that by year 2016 we would completely disband our military we would continue to exist as a nation?
Bunya October 9th, 2014 at 11:22
“…but you said ‘kill to your heart’s content’, that was what is a bit sick in thought, my view.”
Somebody who prefers to start wars, now, over something that’s been tolerated for thousands of years, strikes me as someone who promotes and advocates aggression rather than peaceful resolutions.
“Maybe you do, but I have yet to see it expressed”
War hawks usually don’t see that which is right in front of them.
“Do you honestly, honestly, think anything but war would have gotten hitler to give up his conquests, or tojo?”
Some wars ARE necessary, I agree, but only as a last resort. We shouldn’t be a country known for our jingoism. That is not an admirable quality. It makes us look like nothing more than schoolyard bullies. Take time to listen to the republicans . They’re just not happy unless we’re bombing someone.
Now, if you want to end the ages old beheadings, stonings and killings perpetrated in theocratic countries, then by all means, start another crusade. I’m sure the Vatican and your fellow Christians will be more than happy to assist you. Just don’t ask this country to become embroiled in another war. It is not fair to us who despise violence.
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 13:35
“Somebody who prefers to start wars, now, over something that’s been
tolerated for thousands of years, strikes me as someone who promotes and
advocates aggression rather than peaceful resolutions.”
But that doesn’t at all address your promoting someone to kill until content.
“War hawks usually don’t see that which is right in front of them.”
That may or may not be true for them, but I haven’t seen it either. Show me 3 previous posts from self-determined pacifists that posted that. Or even major newspaper editorials.
“Some wars ARE necessary, I agree, but only as a last resort.”
And there you have it, we agree on a major point in this discussion.
” I’m sure the Vatican and your fellow Christians will be more than happy to assist you.”
Never said I was christian.
“Just don’t ask this country to become embroiled in another war. It is not fair to us who despise violence.”
They declared war on us, many times in writing and in action.
As for fair, besides life itself not being fair, it’s as fair as asking a nation to curl into a ball and hope the planes hit other buildings besides ‘theirs’, to ask a nation to accept constant attacks and not fight back to stop it.
Bunya October 9th, 2014 at 16:53
“But that doesn’t at all address your promoting someone to kill until content.”
I mentioned that because you seem to have a problem with Muslims, and if it makes you happy to kill them, be my guest. Just don’t ask the U.S. to get involved in another war.
“… but I haven’t seen it either…”
I can’t believe you know of not one pacifist.
“Never said I was Christian.”
Then round up a bunch of like minded people and go out and fight the infidels.
“They declared war on us, many times in writing and in action.”
So did Russia, so did North Korea, so did China. Why not go after them? BTW, two years before 9/11, Bush was already planning an attack in Iraq – just sayin’.
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 23:13
“I mentioned that because you seem to have a problem with Muslims”
Nope.
“I can’t believe you know of not one pacifist.”
Never said I don’t. Show me 3 posts here, or any major newspaper where a pacifist explicitly states what you said “war hawks don’t see”… the respect thing.
“Then round up a bunch of like minded people and go out and fight the infidels.”
Nope, not my style to kill just because of a difference in religion, politics or other opinion-only thoughts. The need to kill comes about because of a threat or attack. And then only a dam* serious one at that.
“So did Russia, so did North Korea, so did China. Why not go after them?”
Can you show me the declaration of war from any of those countries, I’m not aware of them.
” BTW, two years before 9/11, Bush was already planning an attack in Iraq – just sayin’.”
lol lol, of course, as well as every other nation on earth… it is called contingency planning. Our various war colleges and pentagon have plans for war as well as epidemic/pandemic/severe natural disasters constantly being updated and sent through computer models.
mea_mark October 6th, 2014 at 18:52
Have you read this? http://lettertobaghdadi.com/
Bunya October 6th, 2014 at 19:02
excellent post. Thanks.
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 19:13
Yes, I did when it came out for their community leaders to read/endorse.
Now, how many didn’t sign it?
mea_mark October 6th, 2014 at 20:25
In America, I bet nearly everyone that it was presented to, to sign, signed it. If you mean how many didn’t sign it because they had no opportunity, is that important?
Spirit of America October 6th, 2014 at 20:51
You’d lose the bet. Dig a little… when it was written, when it was going to be first released, why it was delayed.
Skydog2 October 5th, 2014 at 08:29
You are f###ing crazy if you believe a vast number of Christians support the killing of Dr. Tiller.
There’s no comparison between Christians who say non-believers won’t go to heaven and Muslims who want to stone you for leaving their religion.
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 09:36
“not go to heaven”…
AKA Burn in a sea of fire for eternity..(and other nasty mythological tortures)..
StoneyCurtisll October 5th, 2014 at 10:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgvUaOuEdwA
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 10:29
Some missed your point and used it to partake in Christianphobic activity, AKA insulting it merely to do so.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are pointing out the difference between saying something will happen to one in the future for disbelieving compared to actually ending one’s life for merely disbelieving, yes?
If so, I and most intelligent individuals agree with you, there is a difference; I might even say a major difference.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:54
intelligent??? yoiks.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:54
way off fella – the xians in the usa are no better than any other group of goofs who believe in the absurd.
Spirit of America October 5th, 2014 at 12:07
I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t call my POTUS a ‘goof’ just because of his belief, which you have no proof is absurd btw, he’s actually very intelligent.
Sigma1 October 5th, 2014 at 06:44
Islam the religion of intolerance.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:52
dumbass!!!!!
Dee Jay October 5th, 2014 at 06:44
Islam the religion of intolerance.
fahvel October 5th, 2014 at 11:52
dumbass!!!!!
OldLefty October 5th, 2014 at 07:41
None of these three people know anymore than anyone else blathering in the media?
(Where was Glenn Greenwald? He has has had on ongoing battle with Sam Harris, whom he calls a “slobbering slave of American imperialism and a racist Islamophobe)
Where one can get a fascinating view is from the Pakistani newspaper, The Dawn…. especially the comment section.
(although sometimes it’s hard to distinguish between Pakistani’s and Indians).
http://www.dawn.com/
OldLefty October 5th, 2014 at 07:41
None of these three people know anymore than anyone else blathering in the media?
(Where was Glenn Greenwald? He has has had on ongoing battle with Sam Harris, whom he calls a “slobbering slave of American imperialism and a racist Islamophobe)
Where one can get a fascinating view is from the Pakistani newspaper, The Dawn…. especially the comment section.
(although sometimes it’s hard to distinguish between Pakistani’s and Indians).
http://www.dawn.com/
Budda October 5th, 2014 at 09:07
Mahar is anti religion, all of them. As such he likely over states many things. However, I think he is on to something when he positions “moderates” in any religion that don’t take strong vocal stands against the extremists within their sects as acting in a type of passive-aggressiveness.
Budda October 5th, 2014 at 09:07
Mahar is anti religion, all of them. As such he likely over states many things. However, I think he is on to something when he positions “moderates” in any religion that don’t take strong vocal stands against the extremists within their sects as acting in a type of passive-aggressiveness.
eddie1247 October 5th, 2014 at 09:45
The Great? Did Maher and Harris get a promotion? Why wasn’t I told about this? I was next in line!
eddie1247 October 5th, 2014 at 09:45
The Great? Did Maher and Harris get a promotion? Why wasn’t I told about this? I was next in line!
Spirit of America October 9th, 2014 at 23:13
“I mentioned that because you seem to have a problem with Muslims”
Nope.
“I can’t believe you know of not one pacifist.”
Never said I don’t. Show me 3 posts here, or any major newspaper where a pacifist explicitly states what you said “war hawks don’t see”… the respect thing.
“Then round up a bunch of like minded people and go out and fight the infidels.”
Nope, not my style to kill just because of a difference in religion, politics or other opinion-only thoughts. The need to kill comes about because of a threat or attack. And then only a dam* serious one at that.
“So did Russia, so did North Korea, so did China. Why not go after them?”
Can you show me the declaration of war from any of those countries, I’m not aware of them.
” BTW, two years before 9/11, Bush was already planning an attack in Iraq – just sayin’.”
lol lol, of course, as well as every other nation on earth… it is called contingency planning. Our various war colleges and pentagon have plans for war as well as epidemic/pandemic/severe natural disasters constantly being updated and sent through computer models.