Kucinich: Stop Calling Iraq War A ‘Mistake’
[T]he “mistake” rhetoric is the language of denial, not contrition: it minimizes the Iraq War’s disastrous consequences, removes blame, and deprives Americans of any chance to learn from our generation’s foreign policy disaster. The Iraq War was not a “mistake” — it resulted from calculated deception. The painful, unvarnished fact is that we were lied to. Now is the time to have the willingness to say that.
In fact, the truth about Iraq was widely available, but it was ignored. There were no WMD. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. The war wasn’t about liberating the Iraqi people. I said this in Congress in 2002. Millions of people who marched in America in protest of the war knew the truth, but were maligned by members of both parties for opposing the president in a time of war — and even leveled with the spurious charge of “not supporting the troops.”
Kucinich specifies two ways to begin to address the lies:
- President Obama must tell us the truth about Iraq and the false scenario that caused us to go to war. When Obama took office in 2008, he announced that his administration would not investigate or prosecute the architects of the Iraq War. Essentially, he suspended public debate about the war. That may have felt good in the short term for those who wanted to move on, but when you’re talking about a war initiated through lies, bygones can’t be bygones. …
- Journalists and media commentators should stop giving inordinate air and print time to people who were either utterly wrong in their support of the war or willful in their calculations to make war.
Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: dave-dr-gonzo
David Hirsch, a.k.a. Dave "Doctor" Gonzo*, is a renegade record producer, video producer, writer, reformed corporate shill, and still-registered lobbyist for non-one-percenter performing artists and musicians. He lives in a heavily fortified compound in one of Manhattan's less trendy neighborhoods.
* Hirsch is the third person to use the pseudonym, a not-so-veiled tribute to journalist and author Hunter S. Thompson, with the permission of his predecessors Gene Gaudette of American Politics Journal (currently webmaster and chief bottlewasher at Liberaland) and Stephen Meese at Smashmouth Politics.
58 responses to Kucinich: Stop Calling Iraq War A ‘Mistake’
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arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 10:02
Amen. The impeach Obama fanatics either should support Kucinich on point 1 or STFU
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:53
Thanks. We were looking for a loser to guide us.
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:26
Thanks. We were looking for a loser to guide us.
_______
That’s what the Tea People are for.
arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 10:02
Amen. The impeach Obama fanatics either should support Kucinich on point 1 or STFU
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:53
Thanks. We were looking for a loser to guide us.
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:26
Thanks. We were looking for a loser to guide us.
_______
That’s what the Tea People are for.
craig7120 June 17th, 2014 at 10:21
Point 2
But Mitt Romney looks good on camera.
Sincerely,
David Gregory
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:41
mitt looks like what I leave in the toilet each morning – nothing humorous about your comment.
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:50
You should see a doctor. Turds that look that good can’t be healthy.
Bunya June 17th, 2014 at 13:56
I’ll admit, Romney is a handsome man. Thank God we don’t elect presidents on looks – otherwise we’d be in deep trouble.
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 14:13
lol isnt David Gregory just a treasure?
craig7120 June 17th, 2014 at 10:21
Point 2
But Mitt Romney looks good on camera.
Sincerely,
David Gregory
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:41
mitt looks like what I leave in the toilet each morning – nothing humorous about your comment.
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:50
You should see a doctor. Turds that look that good can’t be healthy.
Bunya June 17th, 2014 at 13:56
I’ll admit, Romney is a handsome man. Thank God we don’t elect presidents on looks – otherwise we’d be in deep trouble.
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 14:13
lol isnt David Gregory just a treasure?
Alan June 17th, 2014 at 10:30
As usual, Dennis is right on point.
arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 10:45
Although I agree with Mr. Kucinich on most issues, he always struck me as someone with a bit of a cranky “get off my lawn” personality that I personally found off-putting. So I have never really supported his efforts for higher office; my preference being Sen. Sanders.
But you are right, as usual Kucinich tells it exactly how it is.
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:40
but Sanders is intelligent and caring and really wants to represent his constituents without a million+ golden parachute – can’t take an honest man seriously can you? :-)
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:49
Ahahahahaaa… the commie is honest??
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:22
You’re the guys who called Eisenhower a commie.
Why would we think you know what a “commie” is?
arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 14:01
Since Sen. Sanders does not make rhetorical accusations without providing a factual basis for his opinion, the good Senator is clearly more honest than you..
Alan June 17th, 2014 at 10:30
As usual, Dennis is right on point.
arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 10:45
Although I agree with Mr. Kucinich on most issues, he always struck me as someone with a bit of a cranky “get off my lawn” personality that I personally found off-putting. So I have never really supported his efforts for higher office; my preference being Sen. Sanders.
But you are right, as usual Kucinich tells it exactly how it is.
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:40
but Sanders is intelligent and caring and really wants to represent his constituents without a million+ golden parachute – can’t take an honest man seriously can you? :-)
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:49
Ahahahahaaa… the commie is honest??
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:22
You’re the guys who called Eisenhower a commie.
Why would we think you know what a “commie” is?
arc99 June 17th, 2014 at 14:01
Since Sen. Sanders does not make rhetorical accusations without providing a factual basis for his opinion, the good Senator is clearly more honest than you..
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:39
no one listened to this man way back when and now you have another pile of merde to deal with. GBA
fahvel June 17th, 2014 at 11:39
no one listened to this man way back when and now you have another pile of merde to deal with. GBA
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:48
BIPARTISAN SENATE INVESTIGATION FOUND NO INTERFERENCE OR ATTEMPT TO INFLUENCE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY REPORTS BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION. THERE WAS NO LYING.
HERE’S UNDENIABLE PROOF:
http://youtu.be/iSwSDvgw5Uc
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:24
Of course there was lying.
Don’t be silly.
The lies are well documented;
Feb. 2002 “I was asked by one of the senior commanders of Central
Command to go into his office. We did, the door was closed, and he turned to
me, and he said, ‘Senator, we have stopped fighting the war on terror in
Afghanistan. We are moving military and intelligence personnel and resources
out of Afghanistan to get ready for a future war in Iraq.'”—Sen. Bob
Graham. [Date the public knew: 3/26/04]
March 2002 “Fvck Saddam. We’re
taking him out.”—Bush to Rice and three senators. [Date the public
knew: 12/8/03]
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/24/timep.saddam.tm/
March 2002 As The New Yorker later reports: “Chalabi’s defector
reports were now flowing from the Pentagon directly to the Vice President’s
office, and then on to the President, with little prior evaluation by
intelligence professionals.” [Date the public knew: 10/27/03]
3/14/2002;
Downing Street memo: “Condi’s enthusiasm for regime
change is undimmed…Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions…what
happens the morning after?” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/15/2002;
British intel reports that there’s only “sporadic and patchy”
evidence of Iraqi WMD. “There is no intelligence on any [biological
weapons] production facilities.” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/22/02;
Downing Street memo: “US scrambling to establish a
link between Iraq and Al Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing…We are still left
with a problem of bringing public opinion to accept the imminence of a threat
from Iraq…Regime change does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush
and Saddam.” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/25/2002;
Downing Street memo: “There has been no credible
evidence to link Iraq with Al Qaida…In the documents so far presented it has
been hard to glean whether the threat from Iraq is so significantly different
from that of Iran or North Korea as to justify action.” [Date the
public knew: 9/18/04]
3/28/2002;
Cheney tells Republican senators that the question is no
longer if the US will invade Iraq but when. [Date the public knew: 5/5/02]
May,
2002; Primary corroborator of Curveball’s claims that Iraq has
mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by DIA. A fabricator
warning is posted in US intelligence databases. [Date the public knew: 3/28/04]
June,
2002; To a deputy raising doubts about Iraq war, Rice says:
“Save your breath. The president has already made up his mind.” [Date
the public knew: 1/7/04]
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/05/01/the-dilemma-of-dissent.html
7/11/02 “Iraq is a very wealthy country. Enormous oil reserves.
They can finance, largely finance, the reconstruction of their own country. And
I have no doubt that they will.”—Richard Perle
7/23/02 Downing Street memo written by foreign secretary after his visit
with CIA’s Tenet and other US officials: “There was a perceptible shift in
attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable…The intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy…The most likely timing in US minds for
military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days
before the US Congressional elections.” [Date the public knew: 5/1/05]
Aug. 2002 White House Iraq Group created to market war. Members include
Rove, Libby, Rice, as well as spinmeisters Karen Hughes and Mary Matalin. [Date
the public knew: 8/10/03]
Sep. 2002 Tyler
Drumheller, CIA’s European operations chief, calls German Embassy in Washington
seeking access to Curveball. Germans warn he’s “crazy” and
“probably a fabricator.” [Date the public knew: 11/20/05]
9/5/02 Upon
hearing from Tenet that no National Intelligence Estimate had been produced to
assess justification for war, Sen. Graham demands one.
9/7/02 Bush
claims a new UN International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) report states Iraq is
six months from developing a nuclear weapon. There is no such report.
9/8/02; Page 1 Times
story by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon cites anonymous administration
officials saying Saddam has repeatedly tried to acquire aluminum tubes
“specially designed” to enrich uranium. “The first sign of a
‘smoking gun,’ they argue, may be a mushroom cloud.”
9/8/02; Tubes
“are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs…we don’t want the
smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.”—Rice on CNN
9/8/02 “We
do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to
acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear
weapon.”—Cheney on Meet the Press
9/13/02 Cheney
tells Rush Limbaugh: “What’s happening, of course, is we’re getting
additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological,
chemical, and nuclear weapons programs.” There is no such new intel.
Mid-Sep. 2002 American
relatives of Iraqis sent as CIA moles return from Iraq. All 30 report Saddam
has abandoned WMD programs. Intel buried in the CIA bureaucracy. President Bush
never briefed. [Date the public knew: 1/3/06]
And on and on…
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 17:04
I dunno. You didnt type in all caps, its not as believable .
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 17:52
FUNNY!!!!
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 17:14
PROOF OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LIES that lead us into Iraq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5FaMbnINwc
Sam Freedom June 18th, 2014 at 05:35
Proof it’s Obama that lies, BY RACHEL MADDOW:
Rachel Maddow on Obama’s Indefinite detention ide…: http://youtu.be/L8J_lcHwkvc
Chinese Democracy June 18th, 2014 at 14:52
I liked the “lawless behavior” of the Bush administration part..
great video .. NOT proof Bush DIDNT lie us into an unnecessary war
It is sad Obama is so right wing on this topic
Sam Freedom June 19th, 2014 at 08:18
It really doesn’t matter “right or left”, it just matters that you take each person and each incident as they come and try to determine their state… sincere or insincere… intelligent or stupid. You’;ve been having trouble with that up to this point but I wish you good luck.
Chinese Democracy June 19th, 2014 at 16:04
I have trouble buying what you are selling
did you go to the same school as Palin? Your pretzel logic is wonderfully obtuse
Sam Freedom June 17th, 2014 at 12:48
BIPARTISAN SENATE INVESTIGATION FOUND NO INTERFERENCE OR ATTEMPT TO INFLUENCE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY REPORTS BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION. THERE WAS NO LYING.
HERE’S UNDENIABLE PROOF:
http://youtu.be/iSwSDvgw5Uc
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 13:24
Of course there was lying.
Don’t be silly.
The lies are well documented;
Feb. 2002 “I was asked by one of the senior commanders of Central
Command to go into his office. We did, the door was closed, and he turned to
me, and he said, ‘Senator, we have stopped fighting the war on terror in
Afghanistan. We are moving military and intelligence personnel and resources
out of Afghanistan to get ready for a future war in Iraq.'”—Sen. Bob
Graham. [Date the public knew: 3/26/04]
March 2002 “Fvck Saddam. We’re
taking him out.”—Bush to Rice and three senators. [Date the public
knew: 12/8/03]
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/24/timep.saddam.tm/
March 2002 As The New Yorker later reports: “Chalabi’s defector
reports were now flowing from the Pentagon directly to the Vice President’s
office, and then on to the President, with little prior evaluation by
intelligence professionals.” [Date the public knew: 10/27/03]
3/14/2002;
Downing Street memo: “Condi’s enthusiasm for regime
change is undimmed…Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions…what
happens the morning after?” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/15/2002;
British intel reports that there’s only “sporadic and patchy”
evidence of Iraqi WMD. “There is no intelligence on any [biological
weapons] production facilities.” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/22/02;
Downing Street memo: “US scrambling to establish a
link between Iraq and Al Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing…We are still left
with a problem of bringing public opinion to accept the imminence of a threat
from Iraq…Regime change does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush
and Saddam.” [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]
3/25/2002;
Downing Street memo: “There has been no credible
evidence to link Iraq with Al Qaida…In the documents so far presented it has
been hard to glean whether the threat from Iraq is so significantly different
from that of Iran or North Korea as to justify action.” [Date the
public knew: 9/18/04]
3/28/2002;
Cheney tells Republican senators that the question is no
longer if the US will invade Iraq but when. [Date the public knew: 5/5/02]
May,
2002; Primary corroborator of Curveball’s claims that Iraq has
mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by DIA. A fabricator
warning is posted in US intelligence databases. [Date the public knew: 3/28/04]
June,
2002; To a deputy raising doubts about Iraq war, Rice says:
“Save your breath. The president has already made up his mind.” [Date
the public knew: 1/7/04]
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/05/01/the-dilemma-of-dissent.html
7/11/02 “Iraq is a very wealthy country. Enormous oil reserves.
They can finance, largely finance, the reconstruction of their own country. And
I have no doubt that they will.”—Richard Perle
7/23/02 Downing Street memo written by foreign secretary after his visit
with CIA’s Tenet and other US officials: “There was a perceptible shift in
attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable…The intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy…The most likely timing in US minds for
military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days
before the US Congressional elections.” [Date the public knew: 5/1/05]
Aug. 2002 White House Iraq Group created to market war. Members include
Rove, Libby, Rice, as well as spinmeisters Karen Hughes and Mary Matalin. [Date
the public knew: 8/10/03]
Sep. 2002 Tyler
Drumheller, CIA’s European operations chief, calls German Embassy in Washington
seeking access to Curveball. Germans warn he’s “crazy” and
“probably a fabricator.” [Date the public knew: 11/20/05]
9/5/02 Upon
hearing from Tenet that no National Intelligence Estimate had been produced to
assess justification for war, Sen. Graham demands one.
9/7/02 Bush
claims a new UN International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) report states Iraq is
six months from developing a nuclear weapon. There is no such report.
9/8/02; Page 1 Times
story by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon cites anonymous administration
officials saying Saddam has repeatedly tried to acquire aluminum tubes
“specially designed” to enrich uranium. “The first sign of a
‘smoking gun,’ they argue, may be a mushroom cloud.”
9/8/02; Tubes
“are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs…we don’t want the
smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.”—Rice on CNN
9/8/02 “We
do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to
acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear
weapon.”—Cheney on Meet the Press
9/13/02 Cheney
tells Rush Limbaugh: “What’s happening, of course, is we’re getting
additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological,
chemical, and nuclear weapons programs.” There is no such new intel.
Mid-Sep. 2002 American
relatives of Iraqis sent as CIA moles return from Iraq. All 30 report Saddam
has abandoned WMD programs. Intel buried in the CIA bureaucracy. President Bush
never briefed. [Date the public knew: 1/3/06]
And on and on…
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 17:04
I dunno. You didnt type in all caps, its not as believable .
OldLefty June 17th, 2014 at 17:52
FUNNY!!!!
Chinese Democracy June 17th, 2014 at 17:14
PROOF OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LIES that lead us into Iraq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5FaMbnINwc
Sam Freedom June 18th, 2014 at 05:35
Proof it’s Obama that lies, BY RACHEL MADDOW:
Rachel Maddow on Obama’s Indefinite detention ide…: http://youtu.be/L8J_lcHwkvc
Chinese Democracy June 18th, 2014 at 14:52
I liked the “lawless behavior” of the Bush administration part..
great video .. NOT proof Bush DIDNT lie us into an unnecessary war
It is sad Obama is so right wing on this topic
Sam Freedom June 19th, 2014 at 08:18
It really doesn’t matter “right or left”, it just matters that you take each person and each incident as they come and try to determine their state… sincere or insincere… intelligent or stupid. You’;ve been having trouble with that up to this point but I wish you good luck.
Chinese Democracy June 19th, 2014 at 16:04
I have trouble buying what you are selling
did you go to the same school as Palin? Your pretzel logic is wonderfully obtuse
Bunya June 17th, 2014 at 14:00
The Iraq war was no mistake. It was a planned attacked that was conceived in 1999.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×4586427
Bunya June 17th, 2014 at 14:00
The Iraq war was no mistake. It was a planned attacked that was conceived in 1999.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×4586427
JamesMMartin June 17th, 2014 at 20:44
He’s right, you know. Nothing can be called a mistake that is voted for by a “representative” government. We are all responsible. So is Hillary. Since our wonderful Supreme Court has called a corporation a “person” allow me to extemporize. If a corporation is a person then our elected representatives, on a theory of *respondeat superior* are our agents. When congress gave GWB carte blanche on Iraq, they made all of us complicit.
burqa June 17th, 2014 at 23:29
I disagree Mr. Martin.
Understand the phrase, “fraud negates consent.”
I opposed the invasion, but even those who supported it were proceeding from faulty information.
They were not told the aluminum tubes were not suitable for centrifuges and that when tested they fell apart in a centrifuge and those tubes were just what the labels on them said they were, 81mm rocket launcher tubes.
They were not told that there was only on source for the mobile chem/bio weapons lab allegation, and that he was a drunk who had been determined to be a serial liar.
They were not told of the clandestine survey of 3 dozen or so nuke scientists in Iraq, all of whom said the nuke program had been shut down. They were not told the other evidence the program had been shut down a dozen years.
They were not told about the intel that said there was no al Qaeda connection.
They were not told that our top Air Force drone experts said it was physically impossible for Iraqi drones to carry chem/bio weapons.
They were not told the uranium purchase rationale was based on a set of documents that were laughably bogus.
They were not told the “intelligence” they were being presented was dug out of a bogus report file at the CIA by amateurs who then presented it as finished, analyzed intel from the intel community.
All these things and more were not known by those outside the Bush administration until after the invasion.
The blame falls on Bush and his underlings who knew. Before the invasion, they knew that every major rationale they gave us had been found to be false or highly unlikely.
Those who voted in favor of the measure authorizing force also believed Bush when he said he would get another UN resolution supporting the use of force, but again, Bush lied. Bush lied when he said the vote was not for war.
We were conned and the only ones responsible are the con artists.
JamesMMartin June 18th, 2014 at 00:30
Why is it that some of us knew it was a con all along and could do naught but say I told you so once it was a fait accompli? I actually applauded Colin Powell when he threw his support to Obama, practically admitting he was ashamed of his association with people who not only lied to him but put him to lying before the U.N. Just prior to the invasion I was amazed to learn that Saddam Hussein had come to the same conclusion i had when he announced that “we have no weapons but Bush will invade Iraq anyway.” O-i-l.
JamesMMartin June 17th, 2014 at 20:44
He’s right, you know. Nothing can be called a mistake that is voted for by a “representative” government. We are all responsible. So is Hillary. Since our wonderful Supreme Court has called a corporation a “person” allow me to extemporize. If a corporation is a person then our elected representatives, on a theory of *respondeat superior* are our agents. When congress gave GWB carte blanche on Iraq, they made all of us complicit.
burqa June 17th, 2014 at 23:29
I disagree Mr. Martin.
Understand the phrase, “fraud negates consent.”
I opposed the invasion, but even those who supported it were proceeding from faulty information.
They were not told the aluminum tubes were not suitable for centrifuges and that when tested they fell apart in a centrifuge and those tubes were just what the labels on them said they were, 81mm rocket launcher tubes.
They were not told that there was only on source for the mobile chem/bio weapons lab allegation, and that he was a drunk who had been determined to be a serial liar.
They were not told of the clandestine survey of 3 dozen or so nuke scientists in Iraq, all of whom said the nuke program had been shut down. They were not told the other evidence the program had been shut down a dozen years.
They were not told about the intel that said there was no al Qaeda connection.
They were not told that our top Air Force drone experts said it was physically impossible for Iraqi drones to carry chem/bio weapons.
They were not told the uranium purchase rationale was based on a set of documents that were laughably bogus.
They were not told the “intelligence” they were being presented was dug out of a bogus report file at the CIA by amateurs who then presented it as finished, analyzed intel from the intel community.
All these things and more were not known by those outside the Bush administration until after the invasion.
The blame falls on Bush and his underlings who knew. Before the invasion, they knew that every major rationale they gave us had been found to be false or highly unlikely.
Those who voted in favor of the measure authorizing force also believed Bush when he said he would get another UN resolution supporting the use of force, but again, Bush lied. Bush lied when he said the vote was not for war.
We were conned and the only ones responsible are the con artists.
JamesMMartin June 18th, 2014 at 00:30
Why is it that some of us knew it was a con all along and could do naught but say I told you so once it was a fait accompli? I actually applauded Colin Powell when he threw his support to Obama, practically admitting he was ashamed of his association with people who not only lied to him but put him to lying before the U.N. Just prior to the invasion I was amazed to learn that Saddam Hussein had come to the same conclusion i had when he announced that “we have no weapons but Bush will invade Iraq anyway.” O-i-l.
Msaleby June 17th, 2014 at 21:04
it may be counter-intuitive, but I’m in favor of trotting out the unindicted war criminals to spout their fatuous advice on what we should do now.It is a great reminder to our memory deficient society as to how the Iraquis got in this mess in the first place. It is much more disturbing to see them prospering in University jobs, when they belong ..well choose your own appropriate punishment.
Msaleby June 17th, 2014 at 21:04
it may be counter-intuitive, but I’m in favor of trotting out the unindicted war criminals to spout their fatuous advice on what we should do now.It is a great reminder to our memory deficient society as to how the Iraquis got in this mess in the first place. It is much more disturbing to see them prospering in University jobs, when they belong ..well choose your own appropriate punishment.