Supreme Court to take up case of transgender high school student seeking to use boys’ room
This is the first transgender case before the high court.
Click here for reuse options!The case, which should be heard this term, marks the first time the Supreme Court has considered the controversial issue playing out across the country, most notably in North Carolina, where the Justice Department has filed a civil rights suit against the state’s so-called bathroom law.
A lower court had ruled in favor of the student, Gavin Grimm, but last summer the Supreme Court agreed to temporarily stay that ruling while it considered an appeal from the Gloucester County School Board.
“I’m nothing particularly threatening or extraordinary,” Grimm told CNN in an interview earlier this year. “I’m just another 17-year-old kid.”
Grimm and his mother told officials at Gloucester High School in 2014 that although his birth certificate recorded him as a female, he had transitioned to being male and had legally changed his name. The school initially allowed him the use of the boys’ bathroom but reversed course after members of the community expressed concern.
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47 responses to Supreme Court to take up case of transgender high school student seeking to use boys’ room
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burqa October 28th, 2016 at 21:31
I consider my position on this issue to be flexible. That said, I do not see how this is a civil rights issue. It is drastically different than the civil rights issues I have seen in our country since the 60s.
Whether it was about minorities, women or gays, the struggle for civil rights has always been about equality. It was always about a group denied rights or opportunities available to others; and the fight was to be given those same rights and opportunities.
This issue is just the opposite in that those suffering from a horrible mental condition are seeking to be treated differently than everyone else and to have rights and privileges unavailable to everyone else.
In what I have read and interviews I have heard from those on this kid’s side, when asked how a school would determine which kids could use bathrooms, locker rooms and shower rooms of the opposite sex, they always described treatment other kids
did not go through in determining which bathroom, locker room or shower room they used.
Because this kid and others suffer from gender dysphoria that screws up their self image, I remain open to some sort of accommodation, the same as we do for people who are disabled or have some other handicap.
This gender dysphoria thing is an awful thing to be afflicted with. It drives victims to suicide. It causes severe depression and anxiety. On one hand they have the biological evidence of their actual sex, but this affliction causes them to believe or want to believe something false, and that kind of constant mental conflict must be a terrible thing to experience.
It has given rise to various expressions that are also false. The victims somehow think their sex was “assigned at birth” instead of during mitosis, if I recall my reproductive science correctly. They speak as if being transgendered is a third sex, which, again, is phony science.
What I find bizarre is that people who do not have this affliction likewise choose to deny science.
Oh man, I used to know a couple of guys who appeared to have this condition. They thought they were women. They could not participate in any conversation in which they did not somehow bring up their menstrual periods. They would blame any mistake the other person made on having his period. It was like one of these anti-abortion kooks who somehow find a way to work in the subject of abortion into every conversation.
The fact that neither of these guys actually had menstrual periods did not matter.
Fiction became fact and their attitude was to challenge anyone to deny what is certainly false.
Now that’s just a couple of people so I do not claim all guys with gender dysphoria who think they are, or want to be women are like them.
I bring it up because what they have in common with transgenders I hear today is an insistence on others denying science as well.
The whole attitude is there is something wrong with someone who tells the truth.
Likewise, there is an insistence that those who do not have this awful condition manifest it’s symptoms – believing something known to be false while denying science.
The victims of gender dysphoria have an excuse for doing so, but others do not, as far as I can see.
The good news is that most children with this affliction somehow escape it and go on to live their lives with an accurate knowledge of their sex and do not have the psychological turmoil that bedevils others.
Inn terms of the case before the court, I think everyone should have the same rights and privileges. All the boys should use the boys bathroom, locker room and shower room. Same with the girls.
A kid should not be singled out and treated differently and made to have a note from their doctor in order to determine which bathroom, locker room or shower room they use. The other kids don’t have to get a doctor to tell the school which one they use.
Teaching scientific facts is what public schools should be teaching. A boy is a boy and a girl is a girl.
If a boy thinks he is a girl, that does not change the scientific truth, any more than it would if he thought he was a bird, or Batman or a dinosaur.
Private schools can teach whatever they want.
And with this case, I wonder how they handled it in the kid’s reproductive biology class. I can’t help but wonder if the teacher accepted false answers on tests when it came to X and Y chromosomes, mitosis and meiosis or primary and secondary sex characteristics.
I mean, how do you teach the scientific facts when you know it may further scramble the head of one of the kids in class? Do you lie to the whole class, or what?
Robert M. Snyder October 29th, 2016 at 02:28
Let’s consider the perspective of a teenage girl who has disrobed in her school’s locker room. She knows from experience that 99% of her teenage classmates who look like boys also think like boys, meaning that they are sexually attracted to girls. When a classmate she has never met walks into the girls’ locker room, if that classmate looks like a boy, her first reaction will probably be “What is that boy doing in here?”. She is not looking at the classmate’s birth certificate, genitalia, or DNA profile. She is simply having an immediate response to the classmate’s outward physical appearance. If this unfamiliar classmate looks like a boy, she is likely to feel very self-conscious. She may feel that her privacy has been violated.
When Bruce Jenner was in high school, he may have felt very much like a female, but he looked very much like a male. If Bruce had entered the girl’s locker room at his school, it seems likely that any girls who were disrobed at the time would have felt violated by his presence. I am told that many teenage girls have body image issues. Having a classmate who appears to be an athletic male observe them in a state of complete undress could be very stressful.
As the father of a 27-year-old daughter, I can well remember the high school days when much of her time was spent on hair, nails, makeup, and clothing. The last thing she would have wanted at that stage was to have an unfamiliar person who looked like Bruce Jenner observe her in a state of complete undress.
I don’t think the solution to this issue has anything to do with birth certificates or DNA tests. The goal is for everyone to feel comfortable while using the locker room or restroom. And since we frequently encounter people we don’t know in those situations, our level of comfort is determined by the outward physical appearance of those with whom we share that space.
Teens who look like Bruce Jenner should avoid using the girls’ locker room because their presence in that space will cause significant emotional distress to many teenage girls. If young Bruce Jenner is not comfortable using the boys’ locker room, then I think it is fair to ask the school to provide some type of accommodation.
This is not a new concept. My wife tells me that girls’ locker rooms in public schools typically have a few individual shower stalls set aside for girls who are menstruating. Nobody is trying to shame girls who are menstruating. They are just providing them with a private space where they won’t feel self-conscious in front of other girls. And girls are instructed to use the private showers when menstruating heavily because using the communal showers would obviously make other girls uncomfortable, especially in the era of AIDS and hepatitis.
We need to find solutions that accommodate people with special needs while also respecting the needs of everyone else. I think it is unreasonable to expect teenage girls to accept the presence of a teenage Bruce Jenner in the girls’ locker room. There has to be a better solution.
whatthe46 October 29th, 2016 at 02:58
you do know that there are girls that dress and act like boys right? if the child is harrassed and called a trans, would you be ok with that? and there have been high profile rebukes that are of the ‘family values’ crowd, that have molested and rape boys and girls. i’m talking about repukes. why worried about a guy who is transitioning to a female. he’s not thinking about some damn woman. here are 2 pics, one of a trans female and the other a male. now, do you really think this trans woman is pretending just so that she can get next to your daughter? and what of the trans guy, send him to the ladies room because he was actually born a girl. how will that work out him walking into the ladies room? see how stupid this is? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/76ba66c86d46661470ec25822e325059b742d29459e0966aeef56ec8f6fc409a.jpg
whatthe46 October 29th, 2016 at 03:01
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc0b9a9557065f19c52731932e97160d418a5ac984998319722cdd8bbd7f000f.jpg
see what i mean now?
Robert M. Snyder October 29th, 2016 at 09:02
I think we are in agreement. If you look like a girl, you should use the girls’ locker room. If you look like a boy, you should use the boys’ locker room. If you’re not comfortable using the locker room that is intended for people who look like you (male or female), then the school should provide you with a third option of some type.
Do you agree with that approach? If not, what would you propose?
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 19:31
Judging people by their looks is at the heart of racism.
We should reject that kind of thinking.
Stereotyping by appearance is wrong.
Unfortunately, it happens all too often in our society. Some people think blondes are all dimwitted. People think certain things about people of color, people who are overweight, or who are old. The Washington Post recently had an article that featured several women of color who were doctors. They had all responded aboard airliners to medical emergencies, but their help was rejected in favor of allowing less-qualified people to give medical treatment to patients in bad shape, because flight attendants did not think these women “looked” like doctors.
I had a teacher who looked like Carrol O’Connor with long hair. She used the women’s bathroom because she was a woman, which, of course, was the correct thing to do.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 19:59
“Judging people by their looks is at the heart of racism.
We should reject that kind of thinking.”
I think you’re oversimplifying things a bit. If you were a single person and you walked into a singles bar hoping to meet someone, would you not make judgments about the people in that bar based upon their appearance? Are you telling me that you would just walk up to random individuals and start making small talk without ANY regard for their secondary sexual characteristics, manner of dress, and other aspects of their outward appearance?
When Larry the Cable Guy walks into the women’s locker room at the local gym, those women are also going to make some snap judgments based upon Larry’s outward appearance. And I think that they would be foolish NOT to do so.
There are legitimate reasons for making judgments based upon other people’s outward appearance. We all do it every day, and it’s a good thing we do. This is hardwired into our DNA, because without the ability to make judgments about an unfamiliar individual based upon their outward appearance, we would be at a great survival disadvantage. We are the descendants of primates who had this ability. The primates who lacked this ability did not live long enough to reproduce.
I think we need to distinguish between legitimate types of discrimination and illegitimate types. If you are suggesting that a seventh grade girl should NOT cover herself and quickly run out of the locker room when Larry walks in, then I think you’re carrying this “judge not” principle a bit too far.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 20:11
It pains me that we have to keep relearning lessons that were so painful and expensive to learn in the first place.
Of course I have certain tastes in women, but long ago learned to not judge.
I have known guys who only dated blondes, or thin women, or women with breasts of a certain size, or some other thing.
I once had a woman I really liked tell me she would never date me because I have a hairy chest.
When we start going down that road it ends up in stupidity.
Our society made progress when we rejected stereotyping people and insisted that those of various races, physical conditions, faiths or other characteristics should have the same opportuinities and rights as everyone else.
The thinking that looked for ways to approve of stereotyping hindered that progress.
Yes, of course girls should react if Larry the Cable Guy – or Donald Trump – comes into their dressing room because they are men and men do not belong in a women’s dressing room.
We should not be figuring out ways to make it ok for them to do so.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 20:35
“Of course I have certain tastes in women, but long ago learned to not judge.”
I think you missed my point. When I said “random people”, I meant truly random. In other words, I was asking whether you would approach people who appeared to be male? Wouldn’t you use people’s outward appearance as a means of determining who was female and who was male? And if so, then isn’t that exactly what every woman does when someone who looks like a man walks into the women’s locker room?
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 20:54
No, I would not approach those who appeared male. If they were, in fact female, that’s on them.
If I struck up a conversation with someone who I thought was a woman who turned out to be a male, she is being deceptive and I do not like dishonesty and would say so.
I like women who are feminine, but do not reject or judge those who are not so feminine in appearance. I learned a long time ago to keep my options open with women.
I have had affairs with beautiful women and with others whom society does not typically regard as attractive and had wonderful times with both. The only thing I lost was my stupid notions of beauty and the lure of judging women by their looks.
I love-em all. I love older women and younger women.
I love tall women and short women, thin women and heavier women.
I love white women and black women and brown women.
A while back I got into a conversation with a younger couple. I didn’t care for the way the guy treated her, and she was nice.
At one point she said to me, “You really love women, don’t you?”
Her lunkhead boyfriend said, “They’re all trouble.”
I looked her right in the eye and said, “Yeah, I love them. I love-em all. They are the greatest thing on earth and life would be complete misery without them.”
She shot her boyfriend a doubtful look that pleased me.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 21:22
sorry just getting to respond. so, the thing is, it shouldn’t be an issue because transgendered persons have been using the bathroom that corresponds to their ‘gender’ for decades and it’s never been a problem. again, women have taken their sons in the ladies public restroom even at the age of 6, because their fear, as was mine, was if a child molester was in there he wouldn’t be safe alone.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 21:34
I like the way WalMart is providing a third “family” restroom. When my father-in-law was getting chemo, he was very weak. Sometimes he needed help in the bathroom. If my wife took him to the store, they had a problem because she couldn’t enter the men’s room and he couldn’t enter the women’s room. The family restroom is a very good solution, and it is at least another option for transgender folks.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 23:16
for the purposes you’ve described with regards to those who need assistance i agree. but, i will not agree that (refer to my posted pics once again) that there should be a separate restroom for them. does this guy look like he shouldn’t be in the men’s room. like i’ve told burqa, i’m more afraid of straight men in the bathroom with little boys than i’m afraid of a transgendered man (previously female). and i’m not afraid of a transgendered woman (previously male) in the bathroom with girls/women. and i wouldn’t leave my little nephew alone with a priest, but, i wouldn’t have a problem with a transgendered male.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 23:34
How about this idea? For new buildings being constructed, we provide a single, large washroom with sinks and a couple of baby changing stations. Around the periphery of the washroom are a large number of private stalls with walls that go from floor to ceiling, and no cracks that someone could peek through. Inside each stall is also a large red HELP button that can be used by an elderly person who needs assistance or by a woman who was pushed into a stall by a male attacker. The red HELP button immediately unlocks the door and prevents it from being re-locked for several minutes. It also sounds an alarm and flashes a red light above the stall door.
What do you think?
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 23:49
ahhhhh you’re killing me here. there have never been a report of a transgendered female accosting any woman EVER in the ladies room. they are NOT a danger to them. little boys are in more danger from straight men than girls are from transgendered females in public restrooms. it’s a fact. what do you propose we do with level 3 sex offenders who prey on little boys (straight men) that are walking our streets and using the men’s restrooms?
Robert M. Snyder October 31st, 2016 at 00:03
Sorry. I should have been more clear. I was picturing a single restroom for *everyone* – men, women, transgender, etc.
There is one large room with a sign that says “restroom”. Everyone shares a common area with sinks and mirrors. Everyone has a private stall that offers complete privacy.
I wasn’t thinking of a transgendered man pushing a woman into a stall. I was thinking of your garden-variety rapist.
Sound better now?
whatthe46 October 31st, 2016 at 00:28
no i don’t like the idea for obvious reasons. besides, men do number 2 anywhere, they are gross.
Robert M. Snyder October 31st, 2016 at 00:39
According to my wife and daughter, women are just as gross or worse! Used tampons lying on the floor, blood on the seat. Some women are pigs! (I’m quoting my wife)
But you haven’t explained why you don’t like the idea of a single restroom with multiple, private stalls. If you are not bothered by a transgender male, what’s wrong with a regular male? Why can’t you share a common washroom with men? What is your concern?
whatthe46 October 31st, 2016 at 00:42
lol. she’s right. some women are fk’n disgusting. but, seriously, that’s not a grand idea at all. it’s bad enough that women have to deal with asshole men gawking at them in the line at the grocery store, we don’t need them hanging out in the ladies room. again, it’s for obvious reason and common sense.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 21:39
I agree with you.
The numbers I have seen on transgenders have surprised me. I read an article that referred to a survey that said there were over 30,000 people in North Carolina who said they were trans.
Of course you are right about women taking little boys into the bathroom and I think we all agree that is ok.
But what about the big hairy man who identifies as a woman, who has no designs on young girls, but who goes into the locker room at the community center and undresses inches away from young girls?
Is that ok, even though the guy identifying as a woman has no bad intentions?
It isnb’t the trans people I’m concerned about, but the child molesters who see this as a way to get in there by posing as being trans.
Like you said, the way we’ve been doing things for decades has worked and I see no reason to change.
I see no reason to give some people rights and opportunities unavailable to the rest of us.
I see no reason to lie about someone’s sex.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 21:46
“But what about the big hairy man who identifies as a woman,…” he’s just looking to get his ass kicked. men don’t have to go to the girls room if they want to molest/rape little girls. that’s something that’s NOT done in public. a child is 10x’s more at risk of being rape/molested by a family member than a stranger. and there’s not one case where a child was assaulted by a transgendered person. and it’s funny that the repukes/konservs are all up in arms about transgendered men when they have actually been the ones who have raped/molested children. and they are the first to jump on the band wagon of ANTI-GAY & ANTI-TRANS. http://www.911review.org/Alex/Republican_Pedophiles.html this is my case.
going to the store so i won’t be responding for a bit.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 22:01
I was talking about a big hairy guy with gender dysphoria who identified as a woman and who didn’t have evil desings or anything.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 22:05
he can identify as a goat as for as i’m concerned. if he’s big and hairy and looks like a man, it ain’t gonna work. and again, there’s never been a case that a transgendered person ever sexually assaulted anyone in bathrooms or ever that i’m aware of. but, people will freak out over it because of hatred and ignorance. i wouldn’t fear for myself or little niece in a lady’s bathroom with a transgendered woman. but, i would fear for my nephew alone with a priest.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 22:25
I like that we can agree on that.
I like you and so I like it more when we agree.
Maybe we can also agree that what is needed is more of a sense of discretion.
One of the things I see society in general (not relating to this issue per se) getting away from is regarding modesty as a virtue. I think in some cases we had restrictive rules in society and we saw them as over-restrictive and have over-reacted. Doing so eventually saddled us with the Kardashians.
I have no idea whether any transgendered person ever committed a sexual assault. I don’t think having gender dysphoria makes someone immune. I imagine that with so many of them that it has happened. If so, it is still no reason to deny them equality. We saw that argument used against gays in order to prevent them from gaining the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The argument that they were more promiscuous and were after our kids was made a lot more in the 80s and 90s.
But since we are talking about hundreds of thousands of transgenders in the U.S., there are going to be some criminals and freaks in there, just as there would be if we took a large enough group of people with another common characteristic. Take a million blondes and you’re gonna have some awful people in there. Same with left-handed people, tennis fans, really tall people, or Springsteen fans.
It’s just human nature that there will be some creeps in a group we support if that group is large enough.
BUT we should not make the mistake of believing that being blonde, left-handed, liking tennis or Springsteen turn people into child molesters.
Sooner or later there will be a high profile case that dominates the media where a transgendered person did something heinous. There will be the inclination to blame their bad behavior on being trans rather than just being an awful person, the same way we would see it if it were a white hetero who did it. There will be nitwit righties who will try to blame it on being trans and I hope to be next to you on the barricades when we oppose them.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 22:43
“…there are going to be some criminals and freaks in there, just as there
would be if we took a large enough group of people with another common
characteristic.” i agree. and don’t get me wrong, i’m not in anyway suggesting that every single one of them are pure of heart. what i am saying is that there really isn’t a case so the argument is moot. believe me, if there had been such cases, the RWNJ’s would have, in a HEART beat, plastered that all over and shoved it down our throats 24/7 like with emails. this all started over gay rights and when they were allowed to legally marry, then they jumped on this band wagon. RWNJ’s are nothing but a bunch of whinny babies that throws tantrums when they don’t get their way. just like with the new NON-EMAIL scandal. it’s disgusting.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 23:14
I don’t know. It may be because it is a new issue with a new name for the trans people. Rattling around in the back of my head is some gruesome multiple murder committed by someone who was, 40 or 50 years ago, known as a transsexual. It is a vague memory and I can’t recall any details.
Come to think of it, in another case, I think mass murderer Richard Speck had female hormone injections in prison. There was an infamous TV special back in the late 80s or something when he was interviewed and talked about all the drugs and sex he was having in prison. After the hormone injections he had grown breasts. I don’t know if he was trying to transition into a woman or what. Everyone who saw it was grossed out for weeks.
whatthe46 October 31st, 2016 at 00:09
but the Speck issue has nothing to do with males wanting to be females. this bastard just hated women. and he got ‘off’ literally playing the part of a female in prison. but, even still, he didn’t dress like a woman and he didn’t go into the ladies restrooms to harm them.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 19:19
Isn’t that the same logic used by Trump when he said the allegations of various women were false because of their appearance?
Shouldn’t we be concerned with getting past such superficial ways of judging people?
The issue of judging people by how they look instead of who and what they are has always been central to the civil rights movement. This issue is being presented as a civil rights issue.
Judging people by looks is at the heart of racism.
It pains me that we have to keep learning the lesson that it is wrong to stereotype people by how they look.
Should we be trying to figure out ways to justify this kind of stereotyping?
I think we need to reject judging people by their looks, whether they are a People magazine reporter, a member of a racial minority, a member of a religious group, a nationality or by any other superficial means used to avoid understanding that people are more complex than outward appearance.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 18:57
I sure as hell wouldn’t be ok with the harassment you describe. I happen to have a long resume of stopping bullying from the time I was a child.
I do not believe a male can truly “transition” into being a female or vice versa. I think it cheapens what it is to be a woman or a man.
I think being a woman is much more than dressing differently or even getting the surgery.
We have had conversations and read and heard discussions where the differences between men and women were discussed. We think differently. We react to things differently.
The fact that we are about to elect a woman presient is important, justas it is important that we finally got women on the Supreme Court, in Congress and other high offices. We shot ourselves in the feet for a couple hundred years by only having males in those positions, because we deprived our country of the unique, special perspective that women bring to the table. That perspective does not come from wearing women’s clothes or getting breast implants.
Women are much more than that.
The same is true with men.
There are things about men that women just don’t get. Put her in male clothes and get her the surgery and she still isn’t going to get it because she is a woman who changed clothes and got surgery.
Gender dyphoria results in the person with it believing something false. The rest of us are under no obligation to go along with what we know is false.
But a sense of decency compels us, or should compel us, to defend people with gender dysphoria if they are bullied or disciminated against.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 19:52
by the way, women don’t get naked in the public ladies room and there’s stalls with doors. also, tRump being a sexual pervert that he is went into the dressing room of girls and women for one purpose and that’s to gawk at them is get a sexual rise from it. trans people do NOT get a sex change just so they can get sexual pleasure out of it by going into a ladies or mens room. that makes no sense.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 20:16
I wouldn’t know, because I am a man and have no idea what goes on in a women’s dressing room, except for that scene in “Revenge of the Nerds.”
If I had a little girl and took her to the public swimming pool at the community center, I would not want a trans man to be changing his clothes next to her, in the dressing room or showering next to her in the shower room, sorry. I don’t care if he got a sexual charge out of it or not.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 20:51
“If I had a little girl and took her to the public swimming pool at the
community center, I would not want a trans man to be changing his
clothes next to her” first of all, i’ve been to public swimming pools and never ONCE did i not go without my suit on under my clothes. i’ve never seen anyone, even a child, change into swimwear at a public pool. again, i ask you, if the woman in the picture i posted went into the ladies room you wouldn’t have known she was once male. if you’re that paranoid then maybe she should pee before she leaves the house. does the woman in the picture look like she went through all the trouble the surgeries, etc., just to get the opportunity to go into the public ladies room? the children that are more likely to be sexually assaulted in a men’s room is by a ‘straight’ male. there have been many stories of this happening. a female that has trans into a male, isn’t thinking about molesting boys in the men’s room period. why do you think it is that mothers, when they are out with their, even 5 & 6 y/o son, take them into the ladies room when they need to go? it’s because they are afraid of men sexually assaulting them, not some transgendered male.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 21:19
I hope you liked my line about “Revenge of the Nerds.”
I have no idea about woman stuff. I don’t go to the gym any more, but what I always did was carry a gym bag with a towel and my gym clothes in there.
I have no idea whether other women go to the pool with their swim suit under their clothes. I’ve never asked or thought to ask.
As for the woman in the picture, had I just seen the photo, I’d agree with you. Makeup artists can do amazing things.
Things would be a lot easier and more peaceful if we didn’t have people trying to deceive others with makeup, clothes, hairstyles and the rest.
I just have a thing against dishonesty. It is hard for me to excuse it.
As to why the person who looks like a woman went to all that trouble, I can only guess. You say it is someone who is a guy.
Look, occasionally I’ll make a joke about having had “a horrible haybaler accident,” but if I really did and had my you-know-what chopped off, I would still be a man. The protagonist in Hemmingway’s “The Sun Also Rises” has to deal with that situation. In the plot, he is the perfect match for the horny Lady Brett, but can’t make her happy so they remain friends and she has affairs with men who are wrong for her.
I think if we decide to allow men into the women’s dressing and shower rooms we are asking for trouble.
I do not think trans people intend to do so, but I think this is opening a door that non-trans child molesters welcome.
I think we would have more problems on our hands if we had girls and boys changing clothes and showering together in high school.
I think we may have to find a third way. Trans people are not going to go away and the one with gender dysphoria have a medical condition. It’s not such a matter of choice for them, so we need to find a way to accommodate their needs as well as get them treatment. Maybe schools and public places should have unisex bathrooms, dressing rooms and shower rooms, alongside the ones designated just for males and females.
I’m thinking we should keep the system we have, but add to it with bathrooms, showers and locker rooms for the trans community.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 21:29
well, being that i’m a woman and believe it or not, i was once just a kid, NEVER do children or women go to a public swimming pool without their suits on under their clothing. “I think if we decide to allow men into the women’s dressing and shower rooms we are asking for trouble.” the picture of the man i posted, what trouble would he pose by going into the men’s room? none. there would be trouble if he went into the ladies room though right? and that’s wrong to suggest it’s the makeup. if you take an actress today and put the pictures side by side (of the woman i posted) with makeup on, it would be no different. if they took the makeup off, it would make no difference. they would still look like women. and i think it’s offensive to suggest that women only look like women with makeup on their faces. c’mon burqa. and again, some guy in ‘drag’ isn’t going to go into the ladies room. i’ve never in my entire life, have seen a ‘drag queen’ in the ladies room.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 20:30
“I do not believe a male can truly “transition” into being a female or vice versa. I think it cheapens what it is to be a woman or a man.
I think being a woman is much more than dressing differently or even getting the surgery.”
I consider myself to be male. When people see me, they generally assume that I am male. Wait staff generally refer to me as “sir”. Nobody has every called me “ma’am”.
But there are no aspects of my outward, public appearance that are uniquely male. There are plenty of women who dress as I do (jeans and tee shirt), wear their hair as I do (short), go without makeup, and keep their fingernails short. There are plenty of women who are my height and weight. There are plenty of women who can outperform me in athletic events. There are plenty of women who can outperform me in Math and Science. There are plenty of women who lack ovaries and uteruses. There are plenty of women with narrow hips who carry extra weight in the abdomen. And there are plenty of women who need a bra even less than I do.
Suppose that I decided to transition from male to female. Which of these things would I need to change to become female? A person doesn’t need breasts to be female. They don’t need a uterus and ovaries. They don’t need wide hips or a little black dress. There are plenty of women who look very much like me on the outside. So why would I need to change *anything* about my outward appearance in order to transition from male to female?
What is it about a woman that makes her “a woman”?
Women’s colleges have been wrestling with this issue, and I find it amusing to watch how they have to contort themselves.
In many ways, I defy the male stereotype. When I was in college, I had a couple of experiences that made it very clear to me that I wanted to have a family. I was not in a relationship at the time, but I started buying Parents’ Magazine and reading it cover to cover. When my parents visited my apartment, my mother was so amused that she bought me a Cabbage Patch doll. I later found a girl who felt the same way about children (she was a maternity nurse!). We had two children, and it was the best experience of my life!
But as a man, what are my odds of getting a job in a daycare center? My daughter is an ultrasound tech. When she was in school, her instructors informed the male students that they would have a tough time finding work in a hospital setting. Hospitals are reluctant to have a male tech perform pelvic scans on female patients unless a female witness is present. This increases costs, so they prefer to hire female techs instead. This is similar to the case of the black doctor on the airplane. People (e.g. patients) make snap judgments about others based upon outward physical characteristics. The tricky part is figuring out when these judgments are justified, and when they are not. My wife now works with elderly patients. Occasionally a female patient will demand that only female nurses take care of her. If a Muslim woman makes this request, there is an added religious dimension. Is this fair to the male nurses? And is it fair to the female nurses who have to shoulder extra work? The hospital permits this because when patients are not happy, they give negative feedback on exit surveys. In some cases, this can affect the compensation paid by Medicare or Medicaid (not sure which).
I think this is a very tricky business, and I don’t think that we can reduce it to something as simple as “never judge a person by their looks”.
One of the first songs I learned as a child was “Read and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight”. I totally agree that children should be taught to ignore race, gender, and other inborn characteristics as much as possible. But when Larry the Cable Guy walks into the locker room where my daughter is showering, I want her to RUN! Wouldn’t you?
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 20:42
Yeah, a couple of issues ago Vanity Fair ran an article on women’s colleges. Some of them accepted trans people and some do not.
What makes a woman a woman, or what makes a man a man?
According to science it is their primary and secondary sex characteristics as determined by their chromosomes.
We all know from experience that it goes deeper than that.
I think we should reject what I think is very superficial. We should not deny science, nor should we allow a few anomalies determine what the overwhelming majority do.
We do that when it is a case of a minority being denied rights and oportunities because we have a standard of equality. This standard rejects the notion that some should have rights and opportunities denied to others. This is what is being asked of us – a few people want to have rights and opportunities the rest of us do not have. They are taking advantage of our sympathy for those who have disabilities, handicaps or are otherwise “different.”
They have every right to demand equality.
They have no right to demand rights and opportunities others do not have.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 21:27
“They have every right to demand equality. They have no right to demand rights and opportunities others do not have.”
How do you feel about a major university that provides a Women in Engineering” program with a website that lists numerous advantages, including scholarships, provided to the students served by the program, and says that “women and multicultural students” are welcome to attend the program’s events?
I wrote to the program director at one of these universities, and she said that white males are warmly welcomed, but she also said that research has shown that women feel intimidated in predominantly male settings. So it seemed to me that the director was saying “White men are welcome, but only so long as their numbers are small.”.
It also occurred to me that some of the male “multicultural” students may have been raised in countries like Saudi Arabia where boys are taught to treat women very differently than men. It is hard to imagine why a woman would feel more comfortable expressing her thoughts in the presence of a male from Saudi Arabia than a male from Peoria, all else being equal. What is it about white males that requires their implicit exclusion while all others are explicitly welcomed by the university’s website?
Why is a person’s gender even being considered in an Engineering setting? Isn’t that what women and enlightened men have been fighting to *eliminate*?
And if some white men need to better understand a woman’s perspective, how is that accomplished by excluding them?
Ironically, the women’s colleges cite research showing that women do better at a single sex *campus*. So I asked the Women in Engineering program director why they were not advocating for single-sex classrooms, such as Women’s Calculus or Linear Control Systems for Women. I also asked whether women who have trouble expressing themselves in the presence of men should be advised to consider attending a women’s college instead of a public, coeducational institution.
Both of my letters to the program director, who holds a PhD, were courteous and professional, but challenged some of the program’s policies on logical grounds. I received a courteous response to the first letter, but no form of acknowledgement to the second letter, which I sent two months ago.
In my opinion, they are committing outright discrimination. Their website is probably the only part of the entire Engineering department website where discrimination is officially institutionalized.
Here’s my perspective: Gender bias and racial bias exist in the mind, not in the body. You can’t look at a person’s gander or race and make assumptions about what is going on inside their heads. Statistics only tell you about average characteristics of large groups. The individuals within those groups often deviate wildly from the mean. So we should treat each person equally as an individual, and not as a member of a group. By all means establish rules of conduct. Demand that all persons be respectful and courteous. Focus on helping students to overcome whatever kinds of discrimination they may face.
My dad was an engineer. Years ago, in his office, people with Polish last names didn’t get the same respect as others. These white men had to deal with a Pollack stereotype. I happen to have a very large gap between my teeth. My dentist said it is the largest he has ever seen. I decided against spending $5K on braces for something that is purely cosmetic. But I have seen the phrase “gap-toothed” used several times in posts on this site (Liberaland). I also have a type of benign tremor known as “familial tremor”. It causes my hands to shake, sometimes very noticeably. What assumptions do people make about me when they see me smile, or when they see my hands shake?
Excluding white males from an engineering-related program at a public university perpetuates a stereotype of white men always being the ones who do the discriminating, and never being the ones discriminated against. That is just wrong.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 21:58
A Women in Engineering program is fine.
So is Affirmative Action.
Opponents of those kinds of programs proceed from the false notion that everyone begins at square one.
During the civil rights struggle and the women’s rights struggle, we were not just seeking to grant equality, but to integrate our society because in certain fields women and minorities had been discriminated against. We could see that discrimination would continue because there would be recruiters who would, for example, find ways to accept only qualified white students at a college.
Granting equal rights was not enough, because of these people who admitted students or hired people. It was in society’s interest to force them to integrate, because otherwise we would have remained a segregated society.
I understand what the woman told you.
I learned the same lesson on the internet and had to change my opinion.
A dozen years ago I was on a local board where a bunch of us wanted unregulated speech and got into a war over it. It went on a long time and I was quoting Jefferson and others on free speech till I went overboard and got banned. This created a bigger uproar so the admins offered to let me back if we met.
When we did, they explained to me the board had to be available for everyone and the impact of strong A-type personalities was to cause those who were less bold to be intimidated and effectively silenced. They convinced me the right way to go was to make it available to everyone so everyone had to be comfortable and that is why we needed regulation.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 23:26
I could not disagree more strongly. Let me explain why.
Many years ago, I had a great job at a small software company whose management was very progressive. For example, every employee got 18 personal days per year. At the end of the year, we were paid a day’s wages for every unused personal day. There was a lot to like about this company, and I put a lot of trust in the management.
At one point, they decided to improve the annual performance appraisal process by allowing any employee to submit anonymous feedback on any other employee’s performance. As an enthusiastic supporter of the overall management philosophy, I didn’t think much about how this would play out.
A coworker in my department was up for review. There was a small thing that sort of annoyed me about the way he interacted with people. I can’t even remember what it was. I saw the anonymous feedback as a way to let him know about this issue without having to do it in person. I submitted my issue anonymously.
I am not sure whether I was the only person who submitted anonymous feedback, but my coworker was really upset about it. He probably assumed that is was NOT anyone in our department, because one day when we were gathered in a group, he expressed how deeply hurt he felt that someone didn’t give him that feedback directly to his face. He said that he would have gladly dealt with their concerns if only they had the courtesy and respect to give him the chance.
Shortly afterward, I admitted that it was I who had submitted the anonymous feedback. I apologized profusely for not having the backbone to just be honest with him.
I wish I could say that this was the only time in my life when I made this mistake. Sadly, I have made it numerous times, and lived to regret each case in retrospect.
I once worked for a professor who was very good to those of us who worked in the research lab. But he had a few habits that really caused morale issues. I should have met with him in private and said “When you do this, it makes me feel like this.”. But I lacked the courage, until one day I couldn’t stand it anymore and years of frustration came spilling out. He asked me to resign. A week later, he asked me to stay. Looking back on it now, I probably should have stayed. It was the best job I ever had. But I couldn’t see that at the time because I was too focused on a few issues that I never gave him the chance to correct. He couldn’t read my mind, and I lacked the courage to tell him what was bothering me. My lack of courage was the reason that our relationship fell apart.
Over the years, I have often found it easy to speak privately with coworkers who echoed my sentiments. It made me feel good to be surrounded and supported by people who understood my point of view. But this only served to deepen my resentment toward the person who deserved to know that something was bothering me.
I don’t know what happens at these Women in Engineering events. But it isn’t hard to imagine the kind of “support” that I got from my coworkers – support that feels good, but ultimately makes the problem worse.
I have come to the conclusion that human relationships require courage. No matter who you live with or work with, there will be times when they need constructive criticism from you that is difficult to give. If you lack courage, you will fail to provide this feedback, and you will ultimately come to resent the other person because they failed to read your mind.
I have noticed something else over the years. The people with whom I have had the best relationships were people who welcomed constructive criticism and even asked for it.
If a student is to succeed in their professional career, they need to learn how to provide constructive criticism to coworkers, superiors, and subordinates in a confident, professional manner. If they lack the courage to do this, then they will always be disappointed in their coworkers, superiors, and subordinates. We cannot expect people to read our minds. We must find the courage to give them honest feedback so that together we can find solutions to issues of concern.
The director of the Women in Engineering program with whom I corresponded stressed that many women don’t feel comfortable expressing their concerns in the presence of men. How will that problem be rectified in a “safe space” where men are prohibited? How will men learn any of the things that they are expected to know about women’s concerns?
I think the Women in Engineering programs are misguided. I suspect that they do more damage than good. And I don’t know how anyone could possibly prove that they help. My own degree is in Computer Science. During my senior year (1984), the percentage of women in that major peaked at about 30%. In the three decades since then, the percentage of women in that major has dropped to 15%. Nobody can explain why. If we can’t explain the causes of a large decrease in Computer Science, then I doubt whether we can explain the causes of a small increase in the percentage of women in Engineering. It’s all hocus pocus. There is no hard statistical evidence that can be used to show a cause-and-effect relationship.
My guess is that the percentage of women in Engineering has increased *despite* programs like Women in Engineering which accentuate the *differences* among people rather than focus on building a single, unified Culture of Innovation. We need to focus on that which unites us.
You show me a person who loves programming microcontrollers and I don’t care whether she is a one-legged lesbian Muslim with a lazy eye and a hundred tattoos. If she does great work, I want her in my company, pronto.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 18:38
Well yeah.
Do we want people with penises in girls’ locker rooms and shower rooms, changing clothes inches away from little girls?
I agree with you on requiring people to go around with test results and notes from doctors. For one thing, it sounds too dictatorial to me. For another, it is unfair unless everyone, with no exceptions, carries around the same documents.
In the discussions about how this would be handled in schools, it always ends up being the trans kids who have to go through all this trouble. This appears discriminatory to me.
We already have a system in which everyone is treated equally. Males use the bathroom, locker room and shower room for males, and females do the same.
Underlying the whole issue is a theme of rejecting science while approving dishonesty. Some people think their feelings determine biological fact, and that biological fact automatically changes when someone decides not to believe the facts of biology.
I’m thinking of the local community center and how child molesters must be watching this develop. Who is going to stop some creep looking like Larry the Cable Guy from going into the shower room with little girls or changing his clothes among them? After all, he merely needs to say he’s trans and then everyone has to back off.
Requiring him to have documentation is discriminatory, unless the rest of the population is required to carry medical papers identifying their sex.
Robert M. Snyder October 30th, 2016 at 19:23
I don’t think there is a simple solution. I’m not against changing the way we do things. But we need to involve the stakeholders in the decision making. Did the administration consult with high school teachers, coaches, and principals? How about seventh-grade girls and their parents?
Ask yourself what you would do if you saw a high school student who looked like young Bruce Jenner walking into the girls’ locker room while you were waiting outside for your seventh-grade daughter after a girls’ basketball game. If the law doesn’t give coaches and principals the right to kick young Bruce out of that locker room, then I cannot support the law.
I’m not saying that Bruce should be forced to use the boys’ locker room. I don’t really know what’s the best solution. But life is full of situations where facilities are designed to economically accommodate the majority of people while providing special accommodations for people who can’t use the standard facilities.
Is it fair that people who use wheelchairs have to sit in designated areas of a movie theater? What if they want to sit in row 7, set 12? Should we require all theaters to make all seats removable so that a wheelchair can be parked in any possible seating position? That is technically feasible, but not very economical.
Is it fair that girls who are menstruating cannot use the communal shower with the other girls? We could require every public school to provide a private shower for every student. This is technically feasible, but prohibitively expensive. So we require girls to share a single, large shower room, and provide a few private stalls for those who have special needs.
I don’t see the problem with providing separate facilities for people who cannot use the standard facilities due to a physical condition.
I think we might be overlooking a thornier question. If we are going to allow our young Bruce Jenner to use the girls’ locker room, then how can we prevent him from joining the girls’ track team? Perhaps you’ve heard of Caster Semenya? If we are going to continue to have separate athletic teams for boys and girls, at some point we may need to come up with legal definitions for the terms “boy” and “girl”. And if those definitions are based upon the level of testosterone in the bloodstream, then maybe we need to start think of testosterone *levels*, similar to weight classes in wrestling.
Glen October 29th, 2016 at 11:35
Can I assume that you’re an expert in psychology, biology, or medicine? You certainly seem to be making absolute statements as though you are an expert…
Not all transgendered people experience body dysphoria. But more than this, transgenderism is in no way a mental disorder.
You mention the XX vs XY distinction. Have you ever heard of complete androgen insensitivity? Basically, it’s testosterone immunity. Those with this have XY chromosomes, but are, for all intents and purposes, women, with the only distinction being that they don’t have ovaries, and thus they do not experience periods. There is literally no way except a test of the genes to determine that what appears to be a girl has XY chromosomes, prior to puberty.
In a similar way, there are people in some places who have some unusual genetics, which result in children all appearing to be female (even in the genitalia) until puberty, at which point the male genitalia develop.
You can call it “scientific fact” all you want, but psychologists, biologists, and medical experts all disagree with you. Transgenderism isn’t a disorder. The only disorder is what comes from the mismatch between their identity and their body – when that mismatch is resolved, they are as happy, as well-adjusted, and as “normal” as anybody else.
You have every right to your own opinion. But you don’t have the right to your own facts. You do not have the expertise to make the claims you have made.
But then, you’re not going to accept what I’ve just said, because it differs from your preconceived beliefs on the topic, that you formed prior to any real learning on the issue. Which is why your post is full of nothing but demonstration of confirmation bias. I particularly note the completely unrelated anecdote you have used to further “justify” your position – that some people falsely believed they had periods when they didn’t has NOTHING to do with transgenderism. Transgenderism isn’t about believing your body is the opposite sex to what it is, it’s about identifying with the opposite sex to that which your genes dictated.
burqa October 30th, 2016 at 17:25
Glen: Can I assume that you’re an expert in psychology, biology, or medicine? You certainly seem to be making absolute statements as though you are an expert…
Don’t make that assumption. Since you brought it up, I note you forgot to include your own medical credentials. Your point is a dud.
Glen: “Not all transgendered people experience body dysphoria. But more than this, transgenderism is in no way a mental disorder.”
I don’t know what the proper label would be, and don’t much care. I have read it referred to as “gender dysphoria” – being that we live in a society that somehow got itself afraid to use the word “sex.” (When I was in school, ‘gender’ was only used in context of grammar.)
Whatever it is, it causes severe anxiety, deep depression and drives people to suicide. So it is certainly not healthy and needs treatment so the person with it can live a happier life.
Glen: “You mention the XX vs XY distinction. Have you ever heard of complete androgen insensitivity? Basically, it’s testosterone immunity. Those with this have XY chromosomes, but are, for all intents and purposes, women, with the only distinction being that they don’t have ovaries, and thus they do not experience periods.”
I can’t recall hearing o that, but I go back 45 years or so on the issue, when songs like “Lola” by the Kinks and “Walk on the Wild Side” by Loue the mid-70 Reed came out. Later, in the mid-70s, the case of Dr. Renee Richards was in the news and discussions ranged afield on sexual identity, the reproductive science and whether a person could be “a man trapped in a woman’s body” or vice versa. The science held that, yes, this could happen. The science was that every year, there were a handful of anomalies where the fetus did not develop as their chromosomes indicated they should. The science was this was exceedingly rare. I have forgotten the stat, but it was something like 5 or 10 cases a year, globally – something like that in terms of rarity.
I do not think someone should just presume they have this “complete androgen insensitivity” without having medical diagnosis by a professional. My impression is many times people make such assumptions.
Glen: “In a similar way, there are people in some places who have some unusual genetics,”
Yers, I often see such vague allusions made in discussions on the issue, but never specifics. When made by someone who is transgendered, they never seem to have gotten a diagnosis and the reference is rarely if ever applied to specific people.
Glen: You can call it “scientific fact” all you want, but psychologists, biologists, and medical experts all disagree with you.
I have no idea what you are referring to.
The facts as I know them are chromosome arrangement determines, in mitosis, which sex the fetus will develop into. The fetus will be born with one or the other primary sex characteristics and will later on develop secondary sex characteristics. Of course I am not refrring to rare anomalies, but normal, healthy infants and development in the womb.
If science now says something different, I will be glad to learn.
Glen: “Transgenderism isn’t a disorder. The only disorder is what comes from the mismatch between their identity and their body – when that mismatch is resolved, they are as happy, as well-adjusted, and as “normal” as anybody else.”
I don’t care about the label, but what it does to people. As far as I can tell, the person who has been taught reproductive science and looks at their own body knows what sex he or she is. If there is a conflict, they have a problem, because on one hand they have scientific fact and on the other, a belief or desire to be something they are not.
Most children with gender dysphoria come around and believe the facts of what sex they really are. Others have to go through life knowing they are being dishonest, and that they have something in their head compelling them to refuse to accept the facts.
Glen: “You have every right to your own opinion. But you don’t have the right to your own facts. You do not have the expertise to make the claims you have made.”
Nice use of the now overused Moynihan cliche. Do you remember him? I really liked the guy.
The same is true of you. One may not be considered accurate if they claim someone with the male chromosome arrangement and primary and secondary male sex characteristics is a female.
Sorry, you have to return to scientific fact or be a science denier.
Your choice, regardless of your level of expertise – and you did not give your medical credentials in the field, either.
Glen: “Transgenderism isn’t about believing your body is the opposite sex to what it is, it’s about identifying with the opposite sex to that which your genes dictated.”
In this case, the use of “believing” and “identifying” appear synonymous to me. You forgot to point out the difference.
The only transgendered people I have known were guys who believed, wanted to believe or identified – I don’t care how you put it – with being a woman. They, and other guys I’ve seen in the media all tended to reflect a comical exaggeration of what they perceive a woman is. They tended to have elaborate hairdos, always not only wore dresses, but favored gowns, as well as heavy makeup, lots of rings, bracelets, earrings and necklaces.
Call it “identifying” if you want, it’s still the same. The people I’ve seen had to work at being a character in a role, rather than just being the sex they are.
Glen, please note I do not presume to know your motives more than you do, nor do I imagine I know what you think more than you do. Please extend me the same courtesy.
I am flexible and would be happy to discuss it further in a respectful, adult manner with you.
PLEASE HOLD ON. This is going to be a long post and I’m adding more, but I have to take a short break.
Glen October 31st, 2016 at 00:19
My credentials are that I have a PhD, and beyond that, I trust what experts actually say. My statements are all based on expert knowledge by others. Yours are absolute statements with no backing.
Gender dysphoria is distress from gender identity mismatching with physiological sex. Not all transgendered people experience any distress – they simply feel like their body is wrong. And yes, oftentimes those who experience dysphoria have depression, suicidal tendencies, etc… but the funny thing is, all of that goes away when the undergo the switch. In many cases, all it takes is to start “being” their identity (no need for surgery, etc). Some opt to go for medical intervention… that’s their choice.
But the key point is, the psychological issue involved is treated by simply embracing their identity and living according to it. And the distress that some experience are due to not being able to be themselves. And do you know what the biggest driver of depression amongst transgendered people is? Bullying. Transphobia from people like you.
My mention of Complete Androgen Insensitivity wasn’t to assert that those who are transgendered have it. I mentioned it because it’s an example of genetics not matching identity – these people almost always identify 100% as female, despite being genetically male. Why should they, or anyone else who identifies as being one gender despite having the genetics for the other gender, be forced to go against their identity in any way? And why do you bring up Lola? That was a transvestite (I’m betting you don’t understand the difference).
And again, the “allusions” aren’t supposed to be “therefore, transgendered people have these conditions” – it’s “nature gets it wrong, sometimes”.
In the next comment, you completely ignore context – I said that psychologists, etc, disagree with you – I was clearly talking in general about your attitude towards transgenderism, and the science of the issue, not the specific case of those with androgen insensitivity, etc. Science has shown extensively that sex and gender are NOT inherently related, that just as some people experience sexual attraction to those of the same sex, so too do some people identify with the gender of those of the opposite sex.
You claim that “Most children with gender dysphoria come around and believe the facts of what sex they really are. Others have to go through life knowing they are being dishonest, and that they have something in their head compelling them to refuse to accept the facts.” – do you have evidence to back up this extraordinary claim, that you make as a non-expert? And it better not be anecdotal evidence (the plural of anecdote isn’t data).
I’ll tell you what, let’s simplify this. Here’s what experts at the AMA say: http://www.hrc.org/blog/american-medical-association-adopts-two-important-pro-lgbt-resolutions
So I’ll challenge you with a simple challenge – find actual scientific evidence to back up your argument. I’ve gone looking for such evidence, and found none – only lay arguments from non-experts who use pseudo-scientific arguments and grandiose claims without any real evidence. I’ll wait here while you look.
Chip01 October 30th, 2016 at 21:25
Early Summer 2016: Trump Patsys and Conservative Republicans freaking out over the notion that their moms/ sisters/ daughters could be groped in a public bathroom
Early Fall 2016: Trump Patsys and Conservative Republicans endorsed a nominee who brags about groping people’s moms/ sisters/ daughters.
>>>On news of a Supreme Court case
Late Fall 2016: Trump Patsys and Conservative Republicans freaking out over the notion that their moms/ sisters/ daughters could be groped in a public bathroom…. but still endorses the Trump the Groper…
Only a Republican can falsely justify their looney logic.
whatthe46 October 30th, 2016 at 21:30
that’s a great post.
Chip01 October 30th, 2016 at 21:35
Thanks.