Krugman not feeling the Bern
I know some people think that I’m obsessing over trivial policy details, but they’re missing the point. It’s about an attitude, the sense that righteousness excuses you from the need for hard thinking and that any questioning of the righteous is treason to the cause. When you see Sanders supporters going over the top about “corporate whores” and such, you’re not seeing a mysterious intrusion of bad behavior into an idealistic movement; you’re seeing the intolerance that was always just under the surface of the movement, right from the start.
Does Clinton have problems too? Of course — she’s been too cozy with established interests in the past, she shouldn’t have given those speeches, and of course she shouldn’t have voted for the Iraq War. But there is no evidence that she’s corrupt, and lots of evidence that she both thinks hard about issues and is willing to revise her views in the light of facts and experience. Those are important virtues — important *progressive* virtues — that seem woefully absent on the other side of the primary.
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34 responses to Krugman not feeling the Bern
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KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker April 17th, 2016 at 10:10
We as a society need to stand for todays Democratic principals and reject the republican hate, divisiveness, war mongering and fear.
As Americans we need to support the Democratic candidate, who ever it is, because the rightwing has had nothing to offer for the last four generations.
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mea_mark April 17th, 2016 at 10:29
” … you’re seeing the intolerance that was always just under the surface of the movement, right from the start. ” — Intolerance of corruption and oppression by the elite on the masses, yup, that is there. No problem with that though. We need to live in a more evolved society, not continue on in a society of oppression and corruption, at the dictates of the wealthy few. If you want to subject yourself to that Krugman, go for it, I am not interested in the least though.
Budda April 17th, 2016 at 10:53
So he points out some Bernie supporters who say/do bad things and then points out the bad things that Hillary herself has done…one’s his supporters actions, the other is the candidate herself. So if I’m not mistaken this is a false equivalency argument.
Both candidates have warts. Maybe we should accept that and discuss their good points.
Quit dumping on the candidate you don’t support. We need to stay united against the R’s.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 12:12
I think one of Obama’s big mistakes was to not appoint Paul Krugman to some important post in his administration.
I can see appointing some Wall Street types. But Paul Krugman would have balanced them.
I hope Hillary appoints him! To the Fed, preferably. Krugman really excels at the macro economic stuff.
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 14:05
Well, if she’s lucky to win.
Why not, he misjudges Bernie and she always misjudges a lot of things monumentally.
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 12:17
Well, here’s Krugnan who I always thought before was quite admirable… but what is he saying now?
Bernie has been pretty quick at admonishing his supporters and even firing members of his campaign who went out of line against Hillary.
Krugman says Hillary shouldn’t have given those Wall St speeches, but of course there’s no evidence that she’s corrupt… WTF!
Hill & Bill have been raking in over $150 million from their speeches and won’t provide transcripts for those speeches.
Who are they fooling that them receiving such truckloads of money won’t be giving something in return.
Hillary was a dirty candidate in 2008 and same now in 2016.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/06/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-democrats-unity/
http://www.salon.com/2016/03/25/hillary_clintons_dirty_politics_bernie_sanders_is_experiencing_the_same_nasty_tricks_that_clintons_campaign_dealt_obama_in_2008/
Krugman is obviously blind & deaf when it comes to Hillary’s supporters (Incl DNC establishment) and campaign.
Shenanigans from DNC ahead of Legislative District caucuses
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10825360
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 12:44
You links “proving” Hillary is a dirty candidate were unconvincing.
And Krugman is clearly not “blind and deaf.” He’s the smartest man in most rooms.
Can’t we support different candidates without this kind of bomb throwing?
mea_mark April 17th, 2016 at 12:45
Krugman is saying it is better to settle for less than it is to assault the system and demand change that is real and beneficial for all.
To help clarify a viewpoint … ELECTION 2016
Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of Our Economy
Only one candidate is challenging our economy’s 40-year neo-liberal dystopia.
… http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/why-contest-between-hillary-and-bernie-such-big-deal-future-our-economy
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 12:57
Both W. Clinton and Obama lowered the deficit, increased employment, raised the DOW and avoided Bush-style invasions and occupations.
I’d hardly call that a “dystopia.”
mea_mark April 17th, 2016 at 15:55
And inequality continues to increase and increase and increase ad nauseum. The poor are getting thrown under the bus way too much.
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 12:45
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Hundreds of New York…voters to file suit…after claiming their party affiliation mysteriously changed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141418338
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Here’s one comment:
-Star Member FreakinDJ
“Clinton Campaign staff has access to the Voter Registration Software
All too easy to access “Sanders Campaign Donors” and change registration data ”
Who needs the GOP, if the DNC and Hillary campaign have already mastered voter fraud.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 12:49
I read your link.
It doesn’t even hint that Hillary might have committed voter fraud.
You just jumped to that conclusion. C’mon, man, use your noodle.
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 13:11
I’m lumping her together with her campaign and the DNC.
Come on Man, I thought you’re smart enough to see that it is obvious that the DNC with DWS as chair, and as the former Hillary’s 2008 campaign manager, is in cohort with Hillary. Don’t pretend you already forgotten that she only wanted 6 Democratic debates to protect Hillary from too much exposure.
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/04/12/bernie-sanders-win-majority-colorado-delegates-party-admits-error.html
Shenanigans from DNC ahead of Legislative District caucuses
http://www.democraticundergrou…
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 13:42
I read your other link — it didn’t even suggest what you are claiming it proved.
There are benign explanations for a couple hundred registration errors out of millions.
Or, even a single rogue signature gather could have done that.
Do you listen to Thom Hartmann? He likes to tell a story about how he was signing a liberal petition but carbon paper and a Republican voter registration was beneath it!
oldfart April 17th, 2016 at 12:50
Make up your mind Paul. You admitted Hillary is the status quo and admired Bernie for being the agent of change. Has that picture changed for you too ?
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 12:53
I read Paul Krugman fairly regularly and I’m not sure what you are talking about.
Hillary _is_ more status quo. She’s also more experienced and pragmatic.
Bernie _is_ trying to be an agent of change. He’s idealistic and resolute. But, not such a great track record of getting things done.
There is no contradiction is supporting one type of candidate without hating the other.
oldfart April 17th, 2016 at 13:27
The article in which he stated that Hillary is the status quo appeared here. I always considered Mr. Krugman as a leveled headed person. He can change his mind, its a free country. Using comments spoken by supporters as a justification to cast doubts on Bernie’s campaign is lame at the minimum and IMO, flip flopping at the worse.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 13:37
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.
How is it a flip flop to prefer the status quo candidate?
Thanks to the steady hand of a moderate liberal president, we have finally emerged from the worst economy since the Great Depression.
Maybe we need some more recovery before we start the revolution. Revolutions, by their nature, are expensive.
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 13:50
Hey, President Obama is progressive and Clinton is not!
She likes saying she is, but she ain’t.
Bernie’s plans are not pie in the sky. Yes they’re revolutionary, but they’re really possible and paid for.
Are you good at Maths?
Obewon April 17th, 2016 at 14:51
“Bernie Sanders says Wall Street tax would pay for his ($75 B) free tuition plan”-“Mostly False” via nonpartisan Pulitzer Prize winner PolitiFact. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/04/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-wall-street-tax-would-pay-his-/
“Sanders’ $75 billion proposal is a federal matching program, meaning the Wall Street speculation tax would cover two-thirds of the costs. States would be required to pick up the tab for the remaining one-third. There is some question if some states would participate in the program. Recently, states have refused to be part of Medicaid expansion under a more generous style of cost-sharing.” These Sanders proposals require Dem supermajorities controlling both the Senate and House.
These Obama legacy proposals didn’t become law either. That’s why Bernie would need 248% more delegates = 1,307 vs HRC’s mere 525 to win.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 14:58
I am a big fan of taxing Wall Street trading. Bernie is 100% right to call for that.
But, I support it because I think computerized trading is dangerous for our economy and contributes nothing to society.
A fairly minimal tax (let’s say, 1%) would not hurt legitimate stock sales but would reduce this crazy new industry of high speed trading.
PS to jybarz: I think this is pretty-much Bernie’s position.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 14:53
>>Hey, President Obama is progressive and Clinton is not!
I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard Bernie Sanders accuse Obama of not being a progressive.
Obama is a liberal but, significantly, he’s a pragmatist. In that regard, he and Hillary seem similar to me.
This is not my first time to the rodeo. I’ve learned to appreciate pragmatism.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 15:08
>> Are you good at Maths? Maybe you’re not. I showed this to you before.
I’m adequate at math. I don’t remember seeing your graphic before.
Here is the think your graphic is missing – getting Bernie’s new taxes passed.
Republican would rather burn the country down than cost billionaires even minor amounts of money.
I, personally, have huge student debt. I would love free college! But, is Bernie’s plan do-able? I have serious questions about that.
On the other hand, free or very-cheap community college might be possible. Here in Oregon we are trying to do free community college and I’m optimistic.
It’s limited to current high school graduates which is not enough to satisfy me. But even this baby-step feels like a herculean task in the face of conservative opposition.
Free tuition for all public universities seems impossible. Sorry. But it just does.
oldfart April 17th, 2016 at 14:22
I appreciate your tone ;) In the article posted here on Alan’s site, Mr. Krugman waxed very poetically on Bernie’s approach to his message, By using the term agent of change as opposed to the status quo. That appeal IMO is being felt in this election cycle on both sides. I don’t view a Revolution as an action rather more an awakening in spirit.
I don’t know what may have caused Mr. Krugman’s change of heart.
AKA flip flop, perhaps he is coming to grips with his own doubts.
Try to bear in mind that I welcome anything that will shake up the powers that be. Someone who’s status quo wont. That doesn’t mean that I will abandon my party if it doesn’t happen.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 14:49
oldfart,
Thanks. jybarz is calling me a “hillarybot” but I really just lean towards Hillary. I’m a long-time Thom Hartmann fan and have been listening to Bernie every week for many years. I really like his vision and his consistency on issues is remarkable.
But, I’m really freaked out by both Trump and Cruz. They would be a disaster for America. Right now, I believe that Hillary has a better chance of beating them, than does Bernie Sanders.
My family disagrees with me and points to the enthusiasm around Bernie. But, I think they are naive about the attacks that Bernie has yet to receive from the Republicans.
You’re an old fart and I’m approaching old fart status. I remember what Lee Atwater and Karl Rove did to far less vulnerable candidates than Bernie Sanders.
oldfart April 17th, 2016 at 15:09
“My family disagrees with me and points to the enthusiasm around Bernie. But, I think they are naive about the attacks that Bernie has yet to receive from the Republicans”.
With all due respect young one ;) If you think that the republican party isn’t going to “attack” with extreme prejudice this time around..
Bernie and Hillary both know what’s waiting for them in the general.
Both have weaknesses that WILL be exploited…
so pretty please, stop using that excuse.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 15:16
oldfart,
I don’t think of it as an excuse, oh, wise elder. ;-)
Seriously — I feel like the GOP operatives have already spent their load on Hillary. Yes, they will viciously attack her but with highly diminished effectiveness.
But, they have not even begun on Bernie Sanders. He’s a socialist. He’s a Jew. He’s an atheist. He honeymooned in the USSR. He’s from New York for goshsakes!
One the GOP slime machine is done with him, many Americans will be convinced that Bernie is Satan himself.
oldfart April 17th, 2016 at 15:40
You are welcome to your opinion but you can not convince me of it.
I wont bother bringing up Hillary’s negatives as I suspect you and I would only get into a tit for tat…kind of like now for example. ;)
jybarz April 17th, 2016 at 13:43
Hillary more experienced and has great record than Bernie?
Are you on drugs?
Obviously, I’ve wasted all the time and efforts I’ve made to convince you with articles proving Bernie has a better track record than her…. remember that thing about him being called the “Amendment King”?
Now, please really, really read this this time. I’ve posted this before when you asked for a proof. Remember?
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you.
Yes, she has the experience of having been a senator and SOS, but she was far from spectacular in both positions. John Kerry is doing a far greater and spectacular job as senator and as SOS. than her.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 14:41
>>Hillary more experienced and has great record than Bernie?
>> Are you on drugs?
Hillary was a civil rights worker.
She was active in state politics — including in the governor’s house..
She spend four years in the White House.
She was a Senator.
She was Secretary of State.
She is arguably one of the most broadly experienced candidates to ever run for the presidency.
Recognizing this does not make me a “Hillarybot” (whatever that is.)
And, I’m not diminishing Bernie Sanders’ experience. He was a civil rights worker, mayor, congressman and is a senator. That’s pretty darn good.
Sure beats the GOP candidates. But I don’t think it beats Hillary.
Mensa Member April 17th, 2016 at 15:39
Well, I gotta go. But, for me, it comes down to this:
Paul Krugman is a really smart guy and a genius at economics.
If he has doubts about Bernie’s economic plan, it gives me pause.
Sam April 17th, 2016 at 16:51
6 Responses To Bernie Sanders Skeptics.
https://youtu.be/VfIhonVoFSg
Sam April 17th, 2016 at 16:53
Why Bernie Sanders May Actually Become President
https://youtu.be/wLA6WdYzQwg