Study: Kids Raised In Religious Homes More Likely To Be Jerks
Compared to their secular brethren, children raised in religious homes tend to be jerks, says a new study.
Click here for reuse options!The study, conducted by Prof. Jean Decety, the Irving B. Harris Distinguished Service Professor in Psychology and Psychiatry and the College and director of the University of Chicago Child Neuro Suite, tested the behavior of 1,170 Christian, Muslim and atheist children between ages 5 and 12 from six countries — Canada, China, Jordan, South Africa, Turkey and the United States. Assessing the children’s tendency to share—a measure of their altruism—and their inclination to judge and punish others for bad behavior.
“Our findings contradict the common-sense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others. In our study, kids from atheist and non-religious families were, in fact, more generous,” said Decety.
While morality is often associated with religion this new research reveals thatchildren from religious households are actually less altruistic than kids from a secular background. Results of the study also challenge the view that religiosity facilitates pro-social behavior, and call into question whether religion is vital for moral development – suggesting the secularization of moral discourse does not reduce human kindness. According to Decety, it does just the opposite.=
Copyright 2015 Liberaland
196 responses to Study: Kids Raised In Religious Homes More Likely To Be Jerks
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 12:50
Once humanity has known a well developed Ethics code since at least the Greeks, morals do not depend on religion.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 09:10
I agree. A person can be moral without religion.
What religion often does is provide a structure that encourages the individual to be even more moral, not just by the doctrine of the religion but also through the support, encouragement and examples set by other members of the group.
People tend to give more when the whole crowd is giving more. I’m not just speaking of giving money, but also time and effort.
Ms. Bousquet, I think you’ll like the following story. It is true and I think you’ll see why I stand up for people like my friend:
This friend of mine was raised in the church but left it in her teens and was rather controversial in her community. She was sharp-tongued and boisterous and made a number of enemies. She finally divorced a husband who had beaten the daylights out of her and moved in with her parents.
One day she came home to find her parents and their dogs murdered. The killer was a family member who used a shotgun. My friend had to clean the house up and she went to every day of the trial. He’ll never get out of jail.
As you can imagine, she was crushed. Everything in her life had come crashing down and the enemies she had made were gleeful. In this small community tongues wagged.
So what she did was go to church, a black church on the other side of town her family had supported financially for 150 years. They took her in while everyone else gloated that she was finally getting what she deserved.
She began to volunteer and was surprised she liked it. So she volunteered more and more and eventually married a fine man.
Today my friend coordinates just about all of the charity programs in the county. She runs a sort of agricultural fair they have and also does things like gets the lights up on the streets in her little home town.
She doesn’t have to work and so is able to devote her whole life to helping those in need and making life better there. It’s very hard to reach her because she is seldom home and when she is, she’s on the way out to something else. It is amazing to see what she is doing with her life.
And yet now, 20 years later, those same gossips still try to run her down and continue to bring up things from her distant past. They refuse to give her one bit of credit for what she does.
I think Christians like her are worth defending.
Around here, the bigots are just the same.
Go ahead, scroll up. Quite a few times I posted about our homeless shelters, soup kitchens and food pantries. Try to find anyone who has posted any appreciation for that. Gina, I posted about the fight we had to get the first homeless shelter. It was a long, tough struggle. Good grief, we were finding frozen, dead bodies down by the river in town. Recently I spent a week with my parents and my mother reminded me of when I got involved. I came home one day, shocked, to tell her, “Mama, there are people living in tents and under tarps down by the river!” I was shocked to see this in a country as rich as mine.
Since then I’ve helped out some, but not nearly as much as many people I know.
It can be quite difficult, many of them have mental problems and don’t take their medicine and many don’t have it. These are people who have lost everything, everything! Imaging going through life with everything you own in a small backpack. Imagine being scorned and rejected everywhere you go and being treated like you were the scum of the earth. They are treated as less than human.
Go ahead, scroll up. See who has anything positive to say about the people helping the homeless and poor.
They refuse, and do you know why?
It is because the people giving the help are Christians.
But they say they aren’t bigots.
Gina Bousquet November 13th, 2015 at 09:29
I’m sure you’ve been doing a great job in your town, as well as your friends Burqa.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 10:03
All I will admit to is trying sometimes.
It’s a constant struggle with selfishness. I don’t think I ever let anyone down through lack of courage. I’ve never considered the odds when I took a stand. My only consideration is whether I believe it is right or wrong or whether I am doing my best. My conscience is clear on those things.
Laura911 November 12th, 2015 at 13:10
“My mommy says your whole family is going to hell.”
Snick1946 November 12th, 2015 at 14:23
I got that from a neighbor’s kid some years ago. I told him that he could go home and tell his dad to go there right now. I’m sure they were shocked but they left us alone afterwards..
CandideThirtythree November 12th, 2015 at 13:31
And the preacher’s kids are the WORST! ask any teacher LOL.
rg9rts November 12th, 2015 at 13:34
Thats simple …they have the same sense of entitlement that jocks have,…that the neither merit nor earned
dewired4u November 12th, 2015 at 13:50
and when the get to junior high the nastiest too….
wpadon November 12th, 2015 at 13:35
Some of the most vindictive people I have met were from my Presbyterian church. Perhaps it was because I got to know them so well.
rg9rts November 12th, 2015 at 13:37
They are all the same…its the I’m holier than thou syndrome
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:53
Really?
Where I live, a Presbyterian minister led the effort to get a homeless shelter. He was quite a guy and made a lot of enemies, but there was no stopping him and several other ministers from different churches who got together with leaders in the community to organize the effort.
The fight went on for 2 or 3 years just to get the shelter, and it continued for over a decade as some tried to move it out in the country or cut funding or otherwise get rid of it.
The man’s name was Leming – I’ve forgotten his first name. He was the minister of the Presbyterian church located at the corner of Princess Anne and George Streets, (or Princess Anne and Hanover – shoot, I get them mixed up) in Fredericksburg, Virginia.
I consider it an honor to have known this wonderful man. He lived simply and devoted his life to serving others. I wish there were more like him and less of the selfish people who stand on the sidelines, criticizing those doing the most to meet the needs of the poor where I live.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:30
The point here being who is funding the homeless shelter? IF it’s the churches, individually or collectively, so much the better. Bully for them. If it’s the local city county government, then religion isn’t a part of it and it’s a secular program.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 08:13
Wrong.
It’s both.
Come on down and I’ll be glad to introduce you to people working at both the homeless shelters here and struggle to stifle giggles as you try to tell them faith has nothing to do with the operation, as if you know better than they do.
We get that kind of presumption from Northerners all the time.
Their manners can be quite coarse. Not all of them of course.
We try to be patient with them, especially the hordes of refugees that flood Dixie from up North. They are fleeing a dying wasteland and come in search of a better life. It’s practically a third world country up there and civilization just doesn’t seem to have taken hold.
rg9rts November 12th, 2015 at 13:35
Really??
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 13:52
I agree. Some Christian sects teach that one only has to believe that Jesus is the son of God to access eternal salvation, so they really feel they have no need to feed the hungry, house the homeless, etc. because, after all, they’re already “saved”.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 14:19
I have never heard that, nor have I ever seen it, and in my life I have been around quite a few Christians from various sects and nationalities.
I think you are making it up.
But here is a chance for you to take a look at what Christian organizations are up to where you live, Bunya. Google a half dozen or so churches and your local interfaith council. Until now you have been reluctant to do so. One imagines you are afraid of what you’ll find – or already know but don’t want to say.
I think it is because you already know. I think your community is much like mine, where 78% of the food distributed by food pantries and food banks is done so by faith-based organizations. I think you are aware that where you live it is like where I live – where the homeless shelters are run by people acting on their faith.
I think where you live is much like where I live, and various faith-based organizations are collecting toys for poor children to receive on Christmas, and are also busy collecting coats, tents, blankets and other needed items for the homeless.
The subject tested here is generosity, and where I live the atheist community just doesn’t turn out the way the people of faith do. They could, but they don’t.
Dwendt44 November 12th, 2015 at 14:41
There are, of course, many churches that teach that they are morally superior and better than the riff raff out in society. There ‘food banks’ if they have one, are for church members only.
The whole of christianity claims that, no matter how bad you are, if you pray for forgiveness, and really believe, all will be forgiven and you get your golden ticket.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 14:49
Exactly. The “forgiveness get out of jail free” card was invented to keep the sheeple in the pews. If they didn’t have an “out” for their sins, they’d have no reason to attend services, let alone support these tax exempt institutions.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:26
They go from those pews in droves to load or unload the trucks, to man the food pantries, to collect things needed by the poor while the atheists are home watching the ball game or something.
Sorry you haven’t yet discovered the power of forgiveness, because it is a mighty thing that does a great deal of good in the lives of people.
One hopes you discover it sooner than later, because not only does it help one become more selfless when meeting the needs of others, but it brings a great deal of peace to one’s mind.
Where we differ is you discourage forgiveness where I encourage it. Indeed, it is part of my personal philosophy. I believe we need far more of it in the world. I think you will eventually agree with me on this one.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:44
I would hope you’d take your own advice. And when did I discourage forgiveness or are you in the habit of lying? I encourage you to refrain from watching Fox “News”. Their version of “facts” seem to be having quite an effect on you.
.
Also, I’d like to see your proof that Atheists “are home watching the ball game or something”, or is this just another one of your Christian “facts”?
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:55
Oh, so you think the church’s teachings on forgiveness is a good thing?
Great!
I much prefer finding agreement than disagreement.
So, according to you, this good thing is keeping people in the pews. That would be a selling point for recruiting more people to attend church.
Way to go.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 16:04
No one needs to be kept in pews to practice good behavior.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:31
Right, but when they are there regularly or receive encouragement from their faith outside of church, they are more apt to act because they have had far more encouragement to do so than the good person who hasn’t.
I think you’ll agree with me that people will do at least some good without such encouragement.
Take these good people and regularly encourage them to give more, to be more selfless, to love more, to forgive more, and provide them an organized context, peer pressure and role models doing these things and that good person will give more, be more selfless, will love more and will forgive more.
I like the way we have come to agreement on the subject of forgiveness.
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 21:42
-debunked horseshit.
No prayer or pew attendance is required to deliver or receive these “selfless giving” benefits> 1,000 charities and schools citywide, Food Bank provides food for approximately 64 million free meals per year for New Yorkers in need. Food Bank For New York City’s income support services, including food stamps (also known as SNAP) and free tax assistance for the working poor, put more than $150 million each year into the pockets of New Yorkers, http://www.foodbanknyc.org/about-food-bank
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:08
No debunking in sight.
I wasn’t talking about New York, I was talking about what I know takes place here, having seen it firsthand with my own eyes.
By the way, got a survey of whether or not the people working at that food bank are people of faith or not?
And, just for kicks, how many of those 1,000 charities are faith-based organizations and how many of the secular ones are run by and staffed by large numbers of people of faith?
Ain’t no debunking if you can’t show that most or all of them are atheist or agnostic outfits with few or no people of faith involved.
Here, every Sunday, in church after church where the call goes out for volunteers.
I have seen it with my own eyes.
One church, for example, have a “fill the truck” campaign where they park a big truck in a shopping center and people donate stuff they buy right then and there. That truck then goes to food pantries and/or food banks, where volunteers unload it.
Many churches around here have food pantries and guess how they get stocked.
Come on down, Obewon, and I’ll be glad to show you around. One of my close friends is THE person to go to for charity work in a very poor rural county near here. There, just about all of the charity work that helps the poor is done by faith-based organizations (outside of government assistance). You may recall previous posts of mine where I described how she got over the murder of her parents by submerging herself in charity work.
I’d say nice try, but it wasn’t, seeing as how you thought a post about New York was about what takes place here in Virginia.
Back to the drawing board for you, but watch out for the equine byproducts you’ve just left laying about the premises…..
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:08
Heh heh heh, the CEO of that Food Bank is a church-going Christian.
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 23:22
So you think that NYC executive personally gives out all 64 Million NYC food bank meals with $150 Million in SNAP, tax and utility bill rebates per year? Lots of government workers with 2/3 of USA “claim” to be Christian, but 85% of them prove to be Bible illiterate. It’s great that NYC is so successful in feeding so many needy, living among so many in NYC who are wealthy food bank donors.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:38
I imagine the board of directors has a say in it.
The chairman of the board is Rev. Henry Belin, Pastor, Bethel AME Church.
Obewon November 13th, 2015 at 00:01
Why would I care what religion an executive of a secular food bank is?
Your posts are very telling as to why you’re so hung up on your ‘Christian persecution complex’ even though 2/3 in the USA feign being Christian Majority. (Globally repeated studies prove Xitans always feel threatened when their numbers crash by 10%.)
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:20
Dwendt44: “There are, of course, many churches that teach that they are morally superior and better than the riff raff out in society.”
“Many?”
How “many” can you name?
One can’t get more riff-raff-y than being dead in trespasses and sins, and the part of the Bible containing Christian doctrine says God loved us when we were dead in trespasses and sins. Further, it tells us to love others the same way.
Yeah, Christianity preaches forgiveness. It is a marvelous thing and a shame you should object to such a thing. We are taught it over and over, as well as turning the other cheek and loving our enemies. Massive numbers of Americans hear these sermons on forgiving others, giving to those in need and loving others on a regular basis all their lives.
The results are seen in real life where the real need is and in who is there getting the job done.
In our churches these are major themes of sermons this time of year as they ramp up efforts to prepare for winter.
Folks like you don’t slow us down as we send out fleets of trucks to gather, transport, store and distribute food, clothing, shoes, school supplies, tents, etc.
People with your attitude aren’t to be found running the homeless shelters.
Jeering from the sidelines doesn’t put any food in anyone’s belly.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:25
Dwent44 posted his opinion and didn’t deserve your hate-filled, vile retort.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:27
We all post our opinions.
Please quote the hate-filled parts of mine.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:47
Gladly:
.
“People with your attitude aren’t to be found running the homeless shelters.”
Proof?
.
“…and a shame you should object to such a thing.”
Proof?
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:02
Those are just statements of fact.
I know people working at the homeless shelters and none of them talk as if they were superior to others.
I think if Dwendt44 would bother to go down there, he’d find the same thing.
What Dwendt44 and you seem unaware of is a whole doctrine of being a servant which is found in the ideology of all the major Christian sects I am aware of.
If I recall correctly, the word in Greek is doulos and taking a look at all of it’s occurrences in the Christian doctrine is enlightening.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 16:09
“Those are just statement of fact”.
Really? I’d like you to post your “facts”, please.
.
One doesn’t need to be a Christian to be a servant. They can be Jew, Muslim, gay, Atheist and women.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 18:06
Good grief I’ve already posted them several times with links and all, but you, typically, refused to address them every time, preferring to make this some sort of pissing contest.
Go back and look at your posts in this thread and take a look at how much space you have devoted to writing about what atheists are doing in terms of giving compared to Christians.
Today, like so many previously, you refuse to even look at what is going on in the real world where you live.
What’s up with that?
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 18:29
I think you’re getting tired or something because you’ve forgotten how the whole subject of being a servant came up.
Sure, Jews, gays, Muslims atheists and women can be servants, and volunteer with that frame of mind and it is beautiful. They are all worthy of praise, and so are the Christians who do so as well. To me, if someone does good, their faith is far less important when we’re talking of good deeds and immaterial when giving credit. I don’t understand why you don’t agree.
I may be mistaken, but I think you once posted you went to Catholic school or something. Now I’m not familiar with that, but perhaps you were taught how to do word studies. On this subject, doulos would be a good place to start, if I recall my Koine Greek correctly.
Also, more to the point, the Catholic Church has a whole line of doctrine regarding priests and nuns being of service as a servant to the flock.
Have you forgotten that stuff?
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 21:38
That is pure B/s Burqa. Food bank debunks your ‘fee food’-from the collection plate rant (usually requiring “prayer” for food), again. http://www.foodbanknyc.org/about-food-bank
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:13
Oh great, I get to laugh at this one a second time!
Hahahaha, you think a post about a food bank in New York describes the food pantries, food banks and homeless shelters run by faith-based outfits in VIRGINIA!
Thanks, I just got some bad news and this served as a nice day-brightener!
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:21
Annnnd, just as I get to laugh at this one a second time, I also get to point out to you that this Food Bank is run by a church-going Christian from the Deep South.
You, uh, say something about “debunking”?
I haven’t even gotten into the 1,000 charities they work with.
Before I do, a post above seemed to say none were churches, is that right?
Or do they work with a lot of faith-based organizations up there?
You’re more familiar with them, so would you mind characterizing the amount of participation by people of faith?
Please feel free to characterize their involvement in any way you believe is accurate and then maybe I’ll take a look….
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 23:35
You never provided any of your ‘church feeding totals with government funds as applied/earned for feeding the poor.’ You previously agreed to ask your church for these ‘financial figures regarding those fed’, and regarding their government assistance provided and or received.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 07:47
Sorry, you’re making that up.
I never said anything about “my church.”
Refresh my memory and tell me which one it is.
Never mind, I’ll save you the trouble. Although I have posted links to many churches around here, I have never posted about mine. I have visited some of the others, but never mine.
Can you even name the denomination I belong to?
Of course not, because not only have I not posted about my church, I have never mentioned the denomination I belong to.
I don’t see what difference it makes because the same government programs or their equivalent is available to atheists so they, too, can help feed the poor, establish a homeless shelter or set up soup kitchens to feed the hungry.
The atheists here aren’t taking advantage of any of those tax breaks, government funds or other programs to help those in need here.
The issue here is the allegation that atheists give more than Christians. I don’t see it where I live and have previously posted links to churches and groups like Micah Ecumenical Ministries as well as what I have witnessed. I have posted the area where I live to give you and others the opportunity to google up anything I have missed.
So whether “my church” receives little or a lot from the government, it doesn’t affect the argument at hand. Either way the faith-based organizations do far more than the atheists, no matter which way you cut it.
Nothing you have posted have shown that atheists give more than Christians. It is an unproven allegation.
I’m feeling rather victorious, having taken all of you on and won the debate by giving more proof than the entire herd.
Obewon November 13th, 2015 at 09:16
Au contraire! Everytime you play this foolish game, you have no facts, no figures ’bout all those from your VA church pew-running-to-feed-the poor with government tax dollars and tax credits.’ You also promised ‘I don’t know my church’s financials on those fed, or funded. I’ll ask’-Burqa. Forgets…
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:25
So what? the program is run as a secular and/or government organization and not as a religious or soul saving program. it doesn’t matter who or what it running it, it’s the operation and goal of the program that is important.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:36
Not only does that Food Bank have a church-going Christian for a CEO, but the chairman of the board of directors is Rev. Henry Belin, Pastor, Bethel AME Church.
I’m sure the reverend would appreciate your “debunking”
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 23:38
So what? Again to burqa 15 minutes ago
So you think that NYC executive, personally gives out all 64 Million NYC food bank meals with $150 Million in SNAP, tax and utility bill rebates per year? Lots of government workers with 2/3 of USA “claim” to be Christian, but 85% of them prove to be Bible illiterate. It’s great that NYC is so successful in feeding so many needy, living among so many in NYC who are wealthy food bank donors.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 07:56
I have no idea how your local outfit operates.
My best guess would be that the Christian CEO would have a say, but so would the board of directors that contains Christians at meetings chaired by a Christian. I would imagine that the Christian-led advisory board has some input.
I also think that the other board members and advisory committees are heavily populated by Christians.
Can you identify any atheists in senior positions there?
Any at all?
Shoot, you’re on Twitter, aren’t you?
The CEO is, how about asking her whether her faith helps her do her job and how many atheists and how many Christians are on the board and advisory committees?
Then I can do like you and a couple months from now pretend you agreed to answer these questions I asked….
Obewon November 13th, 2015 at 09:07
You still haven’t figured out why you flopped?
A: NYC is USA’s most culturally diverse secular city per capita, with the most degrees per person. (We don’t give a crap what comic book a CEO reads.)
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 09:22
Only flopping I’ve done is the Fosbury flop.
The allegation in the OP was that atheists give more than Christians.
Neither you nor any other member of the herd has supported that point, nor have any of you rebutted my argument against it, supported by facts.
I supported my argument, the herd failed to support theirs.
All in all you guys must’ve taken 200 shots here, I don’t know. However many it was it was plenty. You had the advantage of numbers and tech skill. Shoot, I can barely cut and paste, much less find much by searching. But I still won because I gave more proof to support my side.
I win, you lose.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 09:41
I’ll take your word about NYC. It fails to support the allegation in the OP.
You guys have had plenty of time and you all blew it.
Yeah, I’d like to visit NY but I couldn’t live among all those coarse people.
“Diverse secular city?”
Shoot, you probably have more people of faith there than both Dakotas, Wyoming, Idaho and Kansas have people.
I guess diversity is nice, but I like originality, and NYC hasn’t produced much original, culturally. The cuisine is imported from elsewhere. So is the great art in her museums and the forms of music played there.
I don’t know about the thee ah-tah, I’ll give you whatever you want to claim for that.
Gimme the Mississippi Delta, baby.
Unique cuisine, the birthplace of jazz, blues and rock and roll. From the Delta have come tidal waves that rocked the world, and which NYC scurried to copy, just like it copies so much else.
There’s tremendous beauty in the Delta with bougainvillea, Spanish moss and camelias. You got horror films, come on down and see what it’s like to suddenly realize that log 6 feet away is not a log, but a gator, bringing prehistoric terrors right up close and personal. Your heart will jump right out your mouth, my friend.
While I’m certain I’d enjoy it and find nice people in NYC, I doubt I could ever come to love it the way I do Memphis.
Memphis is a grand old belle, especially for those who have the social standing I do.
I prefer my beloved Dixie, which has been experiencing a tidal wave of refugees fleeing the horrors of the North and come South for a better life.
They are voting with their feet – millions of them:
North- thumbs down.
South – thumbs up.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:23
Or, as in the case of the 700 Club self aggrandizing feeding program in Africa, they hungry had to sit/stand through a several hour long sermon/revival before any food was given out. A couple of those attending died before the food got passed around.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 15:48
Burqa does not post hate-filled opinions here. She doesn’t need anyone to speak on her behalf either btw. It’s just that we know her well, so I had to answer you. She is not a fox news sheep either.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:10
Thank you very kindly, Ms. Bousquet.
Though I don’t need anyone to speak for me, I appreciate any support or agreement others may share.
When it comes to actually meeting needs in our community, it is worthwhile to look at whio is actually getting the job done. I have not only posted about what I see where I live, but have also posted links to churches and faith-based organizations here who are actually feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to the poor.
What they do is awesome and it sure ain’t easy. it can be quite stressful at times, yet I see these people soldiering on.
I am in such awe of several such people that I cannot let criticism of them go unanswered.
The generosity, selflessness and love coming from these people of faith seems to really piss certain people off.
I am a he, by the way.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 18:43
Thank you very kindly, Ms. Bousquet.
Though I don’t need anyone to speak for me, I appreciate any support or agreement others may share.
When it comes to actually meeting needs in our community, it is worthwhile to look at whio is actually getting the job done. I have not only posted about what I see where I live, but have also posted links to churches and faith-based organizations here who are actually feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to the poor.
What they do is awesome and it sure ain’t easy. it can be quite stressful at times, yet I see these people soldiering on.
I am in such awe of several such people that I cannot let criticism of them go unanswered.
The generosity, selflessness and love coming from these people of faith seems to really piss certain people off.
I am a he, by the way….
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 14:44
The churches only use the subsidies granted by the government to set up shelters and food pantries. It doesn’t cost their tax exempt organization a dime. It’s the volunteers who do all the legwork, driven by their reward of eternal salvation they were told to expect.
.
Maybe you should look up all the good the Atheist Experience is doing. They do a lot of volunteer work, not because they’re looking for any reward in the afterlife, but because they have a desire to help their fellow man. And they don’t make you sit through a sermon.
.
By the way, did you know that Cardinal Dolan of New York lives in a $30 million mansion, being waited on by a whole slew of butlers and maids? He obtained that position by saving the Vatican thousands in sex abuse payouts when he was Archbishop in Wisconsin. It makes one wonder … how many homeless people can be housed and hungry people fed with $30 million.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:06
Too bad the atheists are too damned stingy to use those government programs to help the poor.
Atheist Experience?
Never heard of it, but if they are doing good I wish them well.. I am involved in helping the homeless and with food banks here and am not aware of any atheist organization involved here. Even the secular organizations that pitch in are run by people of faith.
Sorry to hear that about Cardinal Dolan. It is easy to find such cases and to employ the logical fallacy of arguing from the particular to the general.
I used to know a previous cardinal in New York – John O’Connor.
Father O’Connor distinguished himself on the frozen battlefields of Korea where he was usually found in the middle of the fighting, repeatedly showing incredible courage and selflessness by braving enemy fire to go to the wounded and dying. In the early 80s when the AIDS epidemic hit and there was a lot of talk of quarantining AIDS patients, many of whom were shunned by their own families, not to mention friends, Father O’Connor began each day visiting these people and ministering to them and was with many as they breathed their last. People have forgotten what outcasts they were in those days.
Here, where the rubber meets the road, people of faith are doing the lion’s share of the work helping those in need, and they were doing so before any government subsidy was enacted.
They have been doing so since the settlers first arrived here in 1607.
If Atheist Experience wants to help out, great! If they just want to attack those doing most of the work, while refusing to help out themselves, like some people around here, then it would be better if they didn’t bother. Their mindset is far different than that of those who are cooking the food, conducting the clothing drives, collecting, transporting and storing the food, gathering blankets, hats and shoes, etc.
I prefer to hang out with those actually getting the job done, thank you. Their generosity tends to be contagious.
Try pitching in, sometime, instead of making catcalls from the peanut gallery.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:22
Atheists aren’t government subsidized, which is why they’re “too damn stingy use those government programs to help the poor”. Also, contrary to what you may believe, one doesn’t need to have a religious belief to possess an empathetic, generous heart. You’d see that if you broke free from the dogma that bind you and actually looked around.
.
Now if you prefer to hang out with people who think like you, great! Have at it. Perhaps you should be out there, now, “getting the job done” instead of wasting time posting ad hominem attacks against those with whom you disagree.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 15:33
Atheists are free to form tax-free organizations.
Around here, they just aren’t doing much of anything to help those in need, sorry.
There are a few volunteers, and they are welcomed, but like I said, 78% of the food distributed by food pantries here is done by faith-based organizations and the secular organizations are pretty much all run and staffed by people of faith.
I can’t be aware of what everyone does around here. Maybe you can help out and see what you can find atheists doing in and around around Fredericksburg, Virginia. Likewise, I’ll be glad to help you find out what people of faith are doing in the region where you live, since you seem unwilling to investigate.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:50
I’m sorry you think that Atheists around you aren’t doing much of anything to help those in need. Maybe you’re not looking hard enough. They’re hard to find though, because they’re not out to garner recognition for doing something they think is their moral duty.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:18
When I am at the homeless shelter I don’t see them working there. same with at the food pantries, soup kitchens, etc.
Here, the hungry have a community meal calendar – that is a list of where hot meals are served every day and night. There isn’t just one place to go.
Tonight, they’ll go to Fredericksburg Baptist Church.
Tomorrow it will be Shiloh New Site Baptist Church.
Saturday it’s either The Presbyterian Church on Princess Anne Street or Fredericksburg United Methodist.
Sunday, it’s Mars Hill – another faith-based outfit.
Monday, meals will be served at St. George’s Episcopal.
Tuesdays it’s Maranatha Music Ministries and the Masonic Lodge.
Wednesday, the place to go is Christ Lutheran….
Notice a pattern?
Tell us what’s happening where you live.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 16:30
Atheists usually don’t volunteer at religious institutions as they are not welcomed there. Besides, if they did, you wouldn’t know they were Atheists unless you asked them.
.
Just because you think good Atheists don’t exist, doesn’t mean they don’t. Like good Jews, Muslims and gays, they’re out there helping. They’re just a little harder to spot. I know for a fact that the Qur’an forbids Muslims for publicly taking credit for their good deeds. They do them anonymously to garner praise from Allah alone.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:45
They are welcome here.
I know because I have met them.
You know I live in the Fredericksburg Virginia area – please see what atheist organizations are doing around here. After all, I don’t know everything.
I never said good atheists don’t exist. That is you making stuff up.
I know they are out here helping because I have met them doing so. There’s just not very many.
Responding positively to need is a common human reaction, regardless of faith or lack of faith.
We see more of it from people of faith because they have it taught to them by parents, their community and religious organizations. Call it propaganda, if you will. It works. The propaganda, repeated daily n many instances, combined with peer pressure from the community provides a great deal more encouragement than what atheists receive.
I’ll take your word or it on the Koran.
What you said reminds me of what I was told by a guy who was trying to recruit me for the Odd Fellows. They too, are dedicated to doing good anonymously and the chapter here locally is apparently dominated by people of faith.
And, of course, money donated to the collection plate on Sundays is anonymous and is used for doing good.
Sorry, it’s just a fact: 78% of the food distributed here in food pantries is done by faith-based organizations.
Somewhere around here I posted the places to go for hot meals here.
All you’re left with is theory, supposition and other products of your imagination.
Dreaming is fine, but it doesn’t put food in an empty stomach, honey.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 17:30
“I never said good atheists don’t exist.”
I didn’t accuse you of saying that. Please re-read my post.
.
” All you’re left with is theory, supposition and other products of your imagination.”
More false accusations. Are you looking for admiration? Are you and your religious friends so hungry for praise and adoration that you need to post, ad nauseum, how wonderful you and they are? Okay! You folks are great! You’re wonderful! Now, go pester Glen Beck for awhile.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:38
This part:
“Just because you think good Atheists don’t exist, doesn’t mean they don’t.”
That would be you accusing me of saying good atheists don’t exist. Second paragraph, opening sentence.
I, uhh, believe you said something about re-reading your post……..
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 20:52
I said, “Just because you MAY think…” big difference.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 02:39
No, I cut and pasted the quote in one shot.
But that you saw your error and edited may be another sign of positive change.
Good thing I am patient with you.
It’s only slight progress, but that’s ok.
It is still a ridiculous statement because I said nothing to imply such a thing. That’s just you floating away again from what is happening in the real world to meet the real needs of real people in real need and off into the realm of theory, supposition and imagination.
Among my closest friends are atheists and agnostics. One of my biggest love affairs was with a woman who was an atheist. So I wouldn’t say anything to imply I may not think good atheists exist. I know by experience they do.
How about we forget what I may think and what you may think and discuss what others are doing in real life to help those in need?
Let’s not bother with what they may be doing or what they might do.
Ready to discuss what others are doing in the area where you live? C’mon, let’s check it out. I think it’s pretty much like what I’ve described here, but that’s just a guess. Care to disabuse me of a false notion by posting links to charities there?
No?
I thought not.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 21:12
excuse me. but, because someone doesn’t wear a BIG RED A on their chest you assume they aren’t atheist? what a shallow little person.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 02:28
Kinda hard to excuse someone just making up nonsense about me, but I’ll forgive it anyway. This one is easy to forgive, especially since I’m having such a good time on this one.
Good grief there must be 200 posts on this thread and I haven’t seen a single one that supports the OP.
I have described what I have witnessed here and silenced one after the other of the rest of you by asking you to describe what is going on where you live.
But you guys have the lead in name-calling!
Just as I have opposed bigotry that targets gays, immigrants, Muslims, blacks, Jews, atheists, agnostics or Christians, I have likewise praised gays, immigrants, Muslims, blacks, Jews, atheists, agnostics or Christians when they have done good.
I find it funny that you guys need to know the spiritual beliefs of someone doing charity work before you can praise their good works. That’s on you, not me.
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 21:25
See below, he posts the same B/S every time! Neglecting to learn Donors receive “Tax credits” for donated TIME & food, plus religious orginization tax EXEMPTIONS.
And the fact that our GOVERNMENT pays for every ‘food bank’ because it’s the SECULAR non-religious correct thing to do. (It’s not a Jesus guilt trip that these food-fraud-churches embellish, never mentioning “government funding & tax free donations”)
E.g. Approximately 3 out of every 10 NYC veterans rely on food pantries and soup kitchens. Nearly one in five New Yorkers relies on Food Bank for food and other resources. Food Bank takes a strategic, multifaceted approach that provides meals and builds capacity in the neediest communities, while raising awareness and engagement among all New Yorkers. Through its network of more than 1,000 charities and schools citywide, Food Bank provides food for approximately 64 million free meals per year for New Yorkers in need. Food Bank For New York City’s income support services, including food stamps (also known as SNAP) and free tax assistance for the working poor, put more than $150 million each year into the pockets of New Yorkers, helping them to afford food and achieve greater dignity and independence. In addition, Food Bank’s nutrition education programs and services empower more than 275,000 children, teens and adults to sustain a healthy diet on a low budget. Working toward long-term solutions to food poverty, Food Bank develops policy and conducts research to inform community and government efforts. <-See! No personal Jesus guilt is used here! http://www.foodbanknyc.org/about-food-bank
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 21:45
It’s like he doesn’t get it. He’s right and the world is wrong. Facts be damned.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:05
Damend shame more atheists don’t take advantage of those tax breaks and form organizations on the scale of what faith-based organizations do.
At least they don’t do so here.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 23:06
No “personal Jesus guilt needed!
Have you read your own link?
That Food Bank’s CEO is Margarette Purvis, a church-going Christian.
She seems to be doing a fine job!
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 02:11
I’ve looked more than you.
Go ahead, see what you can find atheists doing in the city of Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania, Stafford, King George and Caroline Counties in Virginia. I am pretty familiar with what goes on here, but hell, there’s 250,000 people in this area.
I’m not going out of my way to make your argument for you, sorry.
By the same token, what’s going on in the area where you live?
How about we take a look at the charities there?
I’m guessing you took me up on my challenge and didn’t like what you found and that’s why you’re reluctant to give your area the way I have.
I think you discovered the situation is a lot like what I’ve described here. I don’t think this area is much different than other areas of the country.
Bunya November 13th, 2015 at 10:56
“I’ve looked more than you”.
Great. Whatever turns you on
.
“Go ahead, see what you can find atheists doing…”
I don’t care what Atheists are doing, but please feel free to investigate, if that’s what makes you happy.
.
“I’m not going out of my way to make your argument for you…”
The only one you’re having an argument with would be you.
.
“…what’s going on in the area where you live?”
I have more important things to do than to investigate your obsession, so I’ll leave that to you to find out.
.
” and didn’t like what you found…”
Then your guess would be wrong. I didn’t investigate anything, and didn’t care to.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 16:13
You have gone over the edge into faux xtian insanity and lies. Not all who volunteer are religous, not all who give money are religous. You sir have become a bigoted faux xtian.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:24
Come on over here and see if I lie or not.
Below a few posts I posted the locations where the hungry are fed in Fredericksburg, Va. I will be pleased to take you to each location to see for yourself who is volunteering.
After that I’ll be pleased to take you to the Thomas Brisben homeless shelter and see if your claims are true or not.
Then we’ll take a ride to the winter homeless facility run by my fave outfit here, Micah Ecumenical Ministries.
After that, I’ll be glad to drive you around to some of the food pantries.
Then you can apologize for making stuff up about me and those actually getting the job done in real life and of course I’ll forgive you.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 16:25
No thanks, you left for a while and came back as a programmed hater and liar.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:32
I’m the same man.
I’ll retain the moral high ground with you by refusing to call you names the way you do.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 17:48
you are not and you have no high ground, you have devolved and it is a shame to see it happen
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 18:01
Heh heh, sorry, but we both know you’re wrong.
There’s only a couple who have been here as long as I, perhaps one of them can remember the screen name of this one little dude who used to post here before there was advertising in the pre-Viafoura days. He was a conservative and when someone would call him a name, he’d merely post:
“name caller.
I win.””
And you know what? If we were to meet we would have a wonderful time. I think you know that. I live in Virginia but am from the Deep South. You would find the way I treat you irresistible, I’m sure.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 16:36
You know burqa well. This is a religious versus atheists fight, no need to take it to extremes I believe
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:53
I see the subject here as being on the subject of giving, atheists versus Christians.
While I don’t care for us to be divided thataway, I object to the false impression being made.
I have posted numerous links here in the past and have given plenty of facts regarding what takes place in the real world where I live.
Bunya, Dwendt44 and tracey marie have not done so for the areas where they live.
It’s as if they’re afraid of the facts, y’know?
As for me, I’m pleased when an atheist helps out because the important thing being lost here is the giving taking place that meets the needs of the poor. That’s what I’m about, what takes place in real life and who is doing it. If someone is an atheist, if they are agnostic, if they are of a different faith – I don’t care but praise them if they help out.
The people I see with my own two eyes running the homeless shelter or serving food at the soup kitchen deserve to be defended, regardless of thier religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 17:03
This is a very American cultural trait. In my culture atheists and religious people leave each other to their own beliefs. There’s not an open fight between the two groups. Here at least the catholic church is well known for it’s choice, but in South America the church was even punished by the Vatican for aligning with the poor against the governmental powers. In American threads I learned to stay out of that disagreement. I only commented today because I felt he was not treating you fairly.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:19
Beautifully said.
Up here we see these fights online and sometimes in the community, but not much. At least I don’t see that much of it.
I have been involved in local issues for 40 years here.
One thing I like about it is when it comes to getting a homeless shelter or dealing with zoning issues or public transportation – often political ideology gets set aside.
I was involved in the effort to get the first homeless shelter and remember the effort fondly because those who fought for it spanned the political spectrum. Right, Left, it didn’t matter. We had executives and carpenters and all sorts of people involved.
I did a little to help a neighboring community get a health care center and the guy leading the effort was a conservative Republican. Who cares? The important thing was getting that health care center for some poor people living way out in the country.
Please feel free to comment all you want. Freedom of speech is a right held by all, and your opinion is welcome, especially since it is put so nicely by an obviously nice lady.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 17:42
Thank you burqa.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:53
You are welcome.
There are some nice people here and we sure need more of them. It is much more pleasant to converse with someone as nice as you. Please post more often.
I don’t know, maybe the angry people here have awful jobs or are under a lot of pressure that makes them so irritable. They could be dealing with physical or mental disabilities or live in bad neighborhoods where they are scared to go outside or something. It could be anything that makes them so bitter.
I think what people like that need is exposure to more people who are forgiving and patient and kind to them, even when they get nasty.
I am giggling at my next thought – an aunt of mine who is a force of nature. She comes into the room in an explosion of sweetness. It’s an avalanche of love and it is impossible to not get caught up in it. I don’t know how she does it, but she’s been that way her whole life. She is devoted to her faith, of course and it is a theme to a lot of what she has to say.
I would like to expose these cranky people to her so she could lift them out of their misery to where they could be more positive in what they post.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 18:27
I don’t wish to nurture disagreements. I know you are a religious man, my friends who argued with you are atheists. I hoped there would be more tolerance between both groups. I don’t ignore churches have a well developed structure to shelter and help those in need, but I also know, despite being a foreigner, that volunteering and donations are usual in the US and not necessarily linked to religion. Let us let this rest Burqa, please.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 18:50
Well, I’m not an especially devout man. It’s not a subject I prefer to talk about. There are a couple reasons why I do so here.
One is I see some pretty nasty bigotry being directed against some wonderful people I know. These are people I love. Some of them literally spend all day helping others.
Another reason is I am old enough to remember the civil rights struggle of the 1960s and the women’s liberation movement here then and in the 70s. I saw my country change for the better as people became more enlightened about people who were different than them. It was a gradual change, people don’t immediately become more tolerant.
One of the steps people had to take was understanding stereotypes and how they are used to keep others down and how they promote misunderstanding and discord. Stereotypes was a big topic for a long time and I was wrong to think once taught, the lesson would be learned. Unfortunately, the lessons from those days have to be repeated and re-learned. Today, as back then, failure to learn these lessons kept our society from advancing.
A third reason is here and elsewhere I am seeing more extremist zealots on the Left who are mirroring the unsavory characteristics seen in the extremist zealots of the Right.
They are justifiably angry at the Right-wing extremists but fail to see how they are doing the same thing.
The Right-wing zealots have brought our government to a halt and otherwise try to keep it from doing the people’s business. They have made our public discourse uglier and have made it more difficult for people to get along with each other.
And now we have people on the Left trying to do the same thing, as if more of what is bad will somehow be good.
They properly object when the Right hates gays or Muslims but they fail to see that hatred is wrong regardless of the target.
They insist the other side be consistent while at the same time reserving for themselves one group or another to hate the way they see the Right doing.
It’s going to take repetition for them to learn that:
It is wrong to hate gays
It is wrong to hate Muslims
It is wrong to hate immigrants
It is wrong to hate blacks
It is wrong to hate Asians
It is wrong to hate Jews
It is wrong to hate Christians.
It is wrong to hate any entire group like that and it is wrong to be inconsistent.
If the bigot is on the Right they should be called out on it.
If the bigot is on the Left they should be called out on it.
One reason bigotry survives is the inconsistency on the Left and Right. If both sides were to speak out against all bigotry, the bigots would have nowhere to go and the world would be a better place.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 20:49
We’re not necessarily all Atheists here. I just like to defend them when someone tries to make false accusation in an attempt to make them look bad. Burqa’s problem is he takes things way too personally. For example, below he says, “I see some pretty nasty bigotry being directed against some wonderful people I know.” Now, I’m pretty sure the people posting here don’t know any of the wonderful people that Burqa is referring to. We don’t know their names, where they live or what they do, yet we’re bigots because, in his mind, we know all his acquaintances.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 02:02
The reason I said that is because you have yet to learn the lessons old farts like myself learned in the 60s and 70s about the use of stereotypes and employment of universal statements.
By doing so, you not only include those people I know and love, but people like Margarette Purvis, the lady from Mississippi who is the CEO of the Food Bank in New York that Obewon linked to. It also includes the chairman of the board and other senior members of that fine-sounding organization that Obewon rightly supports, Christians and all.
What have I said about atheists here?
Well, I said I see very few of them involved in charity work here.
I also said I welcome any charity work any of them does and don’t have to be prompted to praise them for it. I’ll gladly praise them again when I see such efforts brought up.
Too bad you can’t be so willing to praise good works of Christians, but that’s on you, not me or all atheists, either.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 17:47
He used to be okay, seems programmed to fight and claim xtian victimhood now.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 17:56
When I first came here burqa impressed me very much, and he was speaking against me, because I manifested fear of ISIS and he defended the Muslim community powerfully. I saw him as the image of LiberaLand. But I attribute the disagreement today to the need of both religious people and atheists to defend their points of view fiercely. He seems to be very religious. I’d so much like to see tolerance from both sides… You know what a dear friend you are to me Tracey!
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 18:02
Nope, he has changed. He attacks and always has to be ornery. He has gotten worse .
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 18:09
I honestly just saw a defense of points of view. Fierce he’s always been I guess. It’s not easy to argue with him, I remember well…
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 18:39
he will never acknowledge truth.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 19:07
WOW!
You are too kind. I am blushing.
There once was a time when Liberaland was a place where bigotry was not tolerated, nor was nastiness in general. It was a forum where there was more adult-level conversation on the issues.
When someone came in calling names or trying to be inflammatory, many would speak up and inform the new user that sort of talk was not welcome here.
There were a few who never got the message, but the rest of us worked around them and this was a very special place. It was unique in the level at which topics were discussed.
Besides the advantages of people being more adult, there was an additional advantage.
Under such circumstances the arguments of the Left on various issues shine far brighter. We welcomed conservatives as long as they were civil and kept it to issues. They tended to appreciate such a forum, even though their arguments did not fare so well and they did not have the option of turning nasty.
Outside of this forum I rarely discuss faith at all. I have strong beliefs on how people should treat each other that come from my faith, but I’ve never really gotten into the doctrinal stuff I believe and have never even posted the denomination I am (distantly) associated with.
I also feel strongly about people who do incredible work in my area whom I happen to love and feel the need to defend them.
In defending them I try to bring out the truth of what is going on around us because that eliminates the ugly, hateful stereotypes that get posted here that do not comport with reality.
I get a kick out of challenging some of the people here to google local churches and interfaith councils to see what is going on in real life. That they refuse gives an indication as to how important it is for them to hold to a false notion of reality and we must patiently remind them of the truth until they believe it.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 19:20
I believe they obviously do not ignore the work developed by churches and religious people, they refute other aspects of religion, the role of religion in one’s life. To be religious one needs faith above all. Modern humans have changed the way they see the world and many now prescind faith. For those who are non-believers religion makes no sense at all. Between these two groups there can only be tolerance, because definitely there is no common ground.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:39
Very well said!
I’m liking you more and more!
I would add that we also need to keep in mind that people change over time, for many reasons. Someone who is an atheist now may come to believe at a later date.
We certainly need more tolerance.
When my political beliefs were forming, the Left was proud of being tolerant to all sorts of groups. It was something we pushed constantly and there was not so many people so hostile to Christians on the Left back then.
This was back when the civil rights movement was going strong and was being led by Christian ministers out of Christian churches and organizations like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
At the same time, among the antiwar movement was a large contingent of young people who constituted what was called the Jesus Movement. Both had a lot of influence on the modern Democratic Party.
As the women’s liberation movement took off, a significant part of the argument rested on eliminating the kinds of stereotypes that are seen as acceptable by several people here.
It took a long time to get to where people routinely objected to such stereotypes, but now we have to go back to square one with this little group.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:29
To go with my post below; since we are on the subject of who is giving in our communities, perhaps you will be willing to take the challenge that Bunya and Dwendt44 refuse to take: actually find out what is happening where they live.
Instead of making stuff up and blowing smoke, google up a half dozen or so churches where you live and the interfaith council, if you have one. Usually they’ll have a list of efforts they are making in the community.
Then get back to us on what they are doing where you live.
Of course I could just make stuff up, but would prefer to have actual facts.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 17:48
again with the faux victimhood meme
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 19:20
Victim?
Nah.
Just a lil’ thing I do that shows the strength of their attachment to false stereotypes even when the truth about what is taking place in their own neighborhoods is evident.
This was one of the ways we moved this country forward during the civil rights and womens liberation movement days. Bigots like to daydream and pretend fanciful imaginings are reality and the correct reply is to confront them with what is happening where they live and with the lives of those they seek to discriminate against.
This is why I posted below about wishing I could take you around to the homeless shelters, the soup kitchens and the food pantries here. You would have to change your mind.
The next best thing is for you to look for yourself.
Go ahead, they won’t bite you.
Google up a half dozen or more churches where you live and also the interfaith council if you have one. They typically will have a list of programs they are running or participating in.
There’s no reason to fear finding out who is doing what to feed the hungry, give to the poor and house the homeless.
Traceymarie, you don’t have to follow the crowd on this one.
It’s ok if you get informed even as others insist on remaining in darkness about what is taking place where they live to give to those in need.
The only danger is the temptation to get in there and help out. You might find a number of these people you attack are actually quite nice and deserving of more praise than criticism. You might find yourself with positive, rather than negative things to say about those who are serving those in great need where you live.
Would that really be such a bad thing?
Unfortunately, the herd will object.
You can handle it.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 20:59
i’m wondering if you have a headache conversing with him. he has gone competely off the rails.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 21:01
He has now, he used to be someone I enjoyed talking with.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 21:04
yeah. yesterday i responded to some of the off the wall crap he was spewing on the article regarding tundratart. wtf?
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 21:06
Thank God. I thought I was the only one who thought he’d lost it.
It seems he now only has a one-track mind.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 21:17
i actually read one of his posts twice to see if i was reading correctly. i thought wait, someone is using his avitar and name. i was seriously thrown for a loop. i had to call him out. that was just completely nuts.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:28
WHEW!
Tough crowd!
Good thing I never had to deal with such vitriol on construction jobsites over the last 40 years! I don’t think I could have handled it.
I’m feeling faint…..
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 22:32
you need to take your meds and don’t forget the geritol and go to bed.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:44
I’m feeling some numbness in my left arm……and you guys are hurting my feelings!
Bu-ut, one thing you’re not doing is showing atheists giving more than Christians or Muslims, which is what the OP is about.
I, on the other hand, have described much of what people of faith are doing to house the homeless, feed the hungry and give to the poor in my community.
I’m starting to feel better now……………………………….sorry…
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 22:53
you don’t know how much or how little in comparison they do. unlike faux christians, they need to advertise everything they do. a lot of people get great pleasure for doing good works without letting the entire world know who they are. talk about shallow. damn.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 01:50
Since I am involved here, I have a pretty good idea of who is involved where I live. If you can find anything I have missed in the city of Fredericksburg or Stafford, Spotsylvcania, King George or Caroline Counties, Virginia, please fill me in.
Perhaps we can explore what’s going on in your area?
………………………………………..or perhaps you’d rather not know…
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 22:57
Sorry Burqa. We’re not interested in playing your game of “my religion is better than your religion (or lack thereof)”. If it is that important to you to find out which is the more giving religious group, I suggest you research it, and give your report to someone who cares – like Glen Beck.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 23:10
thank you for that Bunya.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 01:46
I got you caring. I’ve held your attention for how many hours so far?
The OP claims atheists give more than Christians and none of you has been able to support that view.
It’s not for lack of time or effort.
I don’t see it where I live and none of you have been able to find anything in my area that rebuts what I’ve posted about what I’ve seen here. Likewise, none of you are showing atheists outgiving Christians where you live either.
So the proposition in the OP has failed all these hours and after all these posts.
With that settled, have you come up with all those references to Deism you once claimed were found in so many of George Washington’s letters?
Just curious, that’s all, because during the time I’ve been away from here I’ve been reading a lot of early American history and have a few more choice nuggets for you to chew on the next time we discuss it……
Bunya November 13th, 2015 at 10:07
I never said anything about George Washington and deism. I don’t know anything about GW and deism, and I don’t care.
.
And you’re correct. It’s not for lack of time or effort. It’s for lack of interest and/or inclination. Like I said, if it’s that important to you prove something so mundane as Atheists do less volunteer work than Christians, then research it and give your results to someone who cares. Thank God you’re not running the country. I do believe you’d ignore every other important issue (climate change, diplomatic relations, etc.) and spend all your time proving how Atheists are inferior to Christians. Maybe it’s time for you to get a life.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 10:26
I thought for sure it was you.
I’ll take your word for it that I’m mistaken.
Maybe it was Dwendt, I don’t know.
That’s ok, soon enough we’ll be back on the history.
After 10 or more hours and, what, a couple hundred posts or something, I’m seeing interest and inclination.
The point about who gives more began with the author of the OP. All I did was make my point and continue to repeat it in various ways. I took advantage of the blinding quality and the obsessive quality that bigotry imparts.
It wasn’t really a fair fight.
I had all of you surrounded from the jump.
I don’t care for such things because I try to look at the bigger picture. What matters is that hungry bellies get filled. I’m thrilled when an atheist serves up that meal and I’m thrilled when a believer does so and the same with an agnostic.
What I find troublesome is the fact that none of you were willing to give even scanty praise to the people I described doing so much for people in such desperate need and we all know why you were all so reluctant.
One reason is fear of stepping out of the herd. The other is a refusal to give credit to someone jest because of their beliefs.
I’m glad I’m not running the country, either.
Look, I’ve probably put up over 50,000 posts here and they covered just about any topic you could name over the last 8 or 9 years.
You think I’m biased against atheists, well, I don’t think so. But look around here and elsewhere and you’ll see when an atheist was cited for doing good I gave props right away, without prompting. I wish you could do the same.
To me, what is most important is getting these poor people the help they need.
If there is an atheist, and agnostic or a believer manning the desk at the homeless shelter, as far as I am concerned they all get the same credit and we should not be stingy with giving those props.
It blows me away you and the rest of the crowd can’t agree with that.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 00:47
Naw, I’d prefer you get nastier and less ladylike with the vulgarities and personal attacks because there will come a time in the future when I’ll remind you of your unprovoked personal attacks here and it would help if you could be more vivid for when I run your words past you again…..
whatthe46 November 13th, 2015 at 01:19
you done? now, ask me if i give a damn?
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 01:34
Not thick enough.
Can you work the f-bomb into something or call me more names? What I got so far should be fine to replay in the future, but it would be nice if you were to continue so I can have more to remind you of.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 21:05
He used to be very diverse in his posts, being able to discuss both sides of an argument. Now it’s Christian persecution 24/7.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 21:20
Exactlly, it is a complete change and not for the good. He immediatly went into his nonsense of atheists and people here are bigots.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:26
oh now you’re hurting my feelings!
I’m telling mom!
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 00:30
Oh I’ll move on to other topics, eventually. Right now I’m having too much fun tickling y’all on this one……
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 22:21
If so, it’s a good time!
Just lil’ ol’ me, all by myself, have managed to put up post after post on what I see people of faith doing in my community when it comes to giving and not a one of you has been able to rebut what I said. I purposefully told you the area where I live so you could try to find some atheist organizations pitching in, but so far, …….nothing.
It’s a shame that hardly any of you are able to look at a homeless shelter, for example, and be glad it is there serving the homeless, but you can’t because you have a bugaboo about Christians that holds you back.
Fortunately, people of faith united here and not only got the shelter in the first place, but when it had to move, they found new locations until it came to where it is now.
Those who have struggled for over 30 years to keep it running were not negative-minded the way you guys are. No, it has been kept running thanks to the efforts of positive-minded people contributing their time and effort, in some cases risking their jobs to do so.
Those jeering from the sidelines don’t get much done for the needy at all, but they get to watch others who do….
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 23:27
go watch pat fuckerson or something. i mean really, you are so full of shit i need to spray febreze on my damn computer.
CandideThirtythree November 12th, 2015 at 23:59
“Kiva
We are a non-profit organization with a mission to
connect people through lending to alleviate poverty. Leveraging the
internet and a worldwide network of microfinance institutions, Kiva lets
individuals lend as little as $25 to help create opportunity around the
world.
Planned Parenthood USA
Planned Parenthood International
We are a trusted health care provider, an informed
educator, a passionate advocate, and a global partner helping similar
organizations around the world. Planned Parenthood delivers vital
reproductive health care, sex education, and information to millions of
women, men, and young people worldwide.
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières
MSF’s work is based on the humanitarian principles of
medical ethics and impartiality. The organization is committed to
bringing quality medical care to people in crisis regardless of their
race, religion, or political affiliation. MSF operates independently of
any political, military, or religious agendas.
Donors Choose
DonorsChoose.org engages the public in public schools by
giving people a simple, accountable and personal way to address
educational inequity. We envision a nation where children in every
community have the tools and experiences needed for an excellent
education.
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
The mission of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason
and Science is to support scientific education, critical thinking and
evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to
overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and
suffering.
Foundation Beyond Belief
(n.b. another vested interest if you consider demonstrating humanist generosity a vested interest)
Foundation Beyond Belief is a 501(c)(3) charitable
foundation created to focus, encourage and demonstrate humanist
generosity and compassion. We select and feature five charitable
organizations per quarter, one in each of the following cause areas:
Education
Poverty and Health
Human Rights
The Natural World
Challenge the Gap (charities based in other worldviews)
Kansas City Atheist Coalition
The Kansas City Atheist Coalition is a 501(c)3 nonprofit
charitable organization. Our mission is to advance atheism through
activism, philanthropy, education and the cultivation of a positive
secular community.
The American Red Cross
The humanitarian mission of the American Red Cross
connects us to people and communities across the nation and around the
world. The common bonds of humanity and compassion unite us together,
not just in the face of emergencies and disasters, but in helping our
neighbors every day.
Direct Relief International
Direct Relief was established in 1948 and is
nonsectarian, nongovernmental, and apolitical. All the programs are
provided in a non-discriminatory manner, without regard to political
affiliation, religious belief, or ethnic identity.
The American Humanist Association
Humanist Charities, an adjunct of the American Humanist
Association, specializes in benevolent aid and action to further the
health and welfare of humankind. Its purpose includes applying uniquely
humanist approaches to those in need and directing the generosity of
American humanists to worthy disaster relief and development projects
around the world.
Partners in Health
When a person in Peru, or Siberia, or rural Haiti falls
ill, PIH uses all of the means at our disposal to make them well—from
pressuring drug manufacturers, to lobbying policy makers, to providing
medical care and social services. Whatever it takes. Just as we would do
if a member of our own family—or we ourselves—were ill.
UNICEF
UNICEF is the driving force that helps build a world
where the rights of every child are realized. We have the global
authority to influence decision-makers, and the variety of partners at
grassroots level to turn the most innovative ideas into reality. That
makes us unique among world organizations, and unique among those
working with the young.
American Civil Liberties Union
The ACLU is our nation’s guardian of liberty, working
daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the
individual rights and liberties that the Constitution and laws of the
United States guarantee everyone in this country.
British Humanist Association
The British Humanist Association (BHA) is the national
charity working on behalf of non-religious people who seek to live
ethical and fulfilling lives on the basis of reason and humanity.
Oxfam
Oxfam is an international confederation of 17
organizations networked together in more than 90 countries, as part of a
global movement for change, to build a future free from the injustice
of poverty.
Now, I am certain there are more atheist charities around and if I
missed any, please add a comment with a link. But – I think this
reasonably dispels the notion that there are little or no atheists
giving time and money to charitable works. One could even say that (I am
not going to) atheists are more generous because they are not obliged
to do so. I have deliberately left out any charities with potential to
be classed as “anti-religion,” – with the exception of Planned
Parenthood.I guess some of these could more be called secular rather
than openly atheist, but they are all non-religious.
It is a little disturbing to see attacks on atheists for lack of
giving, and a few articles recently have been in the news to help dispel this notion even further.”
http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2012/11/21/thanks-to-humanity/10604
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 00:04
“It is a little disturbing to see attacks on atheists for lack of
giving, and a few articles recently have been in the news to help dispel this notion even further.”
I am grateful for any they do.
It would be a shame were you to claim those organizations have only atheists for members.
If they don’t, your point goes limp, sorry.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:11
The point being is that they are secular and not religious.
whatthe46 November 13th, 2015 at 00:24
stick me with a fork i’m done. people like him cannot be reasoned with. be like me or f’ you.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 06:12
Nope, never said that.
The OP said atheists gave more than Christians or Muslims in places like China and I have simply pointed out what I have seen.
I never told you or anyone else to be like me.
I simply made points regarding the OP that no one was able to rebut. Further, there was very little, if any, effort to prove the conclusions of the OP. I think that is because if you or anyone else ever took me up on my challenge you found out that where you live the faith-based outfits are doing pretty much what they are doing here and you can’t adjust your opinion to these facts because the herd won’t like it.
I think the real reason you’re leaving is it’s bedtime. That, or you’ve run out of names to call me.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 01:29
How about their membership?
How about this: how about we agree that charity work done by anyone is praiseworthy and it is foolish to withhold praise because the person’s views on spiritual matters?
The OP tries to claim that atheists give more than Christians. That is not what I see here and after all these posts, I have not seen anyone post anything different about where they live.
I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I think we should not be trying to divide us. Atheists, agnostics and believers on the Left will need each other come Election Day.
It seems to me that only the Republicans profit when we are divided thusly.
Likewise, I think it is foolish to try to alienate Christians from the Democratic party or the Left in general. They make up a major percentage of the Democratic Party and if they stay at home or vote for a third party candidate, say hello to President Huckabee or President Cruz nominating the sucessor to Ruth Bader Ginzberg.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 03:31
That’s fine with me. It doesn’t affect my points, especially since I know they have Christian members just like that Food Bank in New York that Obewon posted a link to that has a church-going Christian from Mississippi as a CEO and a pastor as chairman of the board and in other senior positions.
There are secular organizations here that are packed with people of faith and are usually run by someone of faith.
By the same token, I imagine there are groups with all-atheist membership doing charity work, somewhere or other. None of you have found any where I live, but there’s still time.
I’ll praise, without prompting, any atheist group doing charity work because, unlike you and the rest of the herd, I don’t need to know someone’s spiritual beliefs before I decide whether to praise their help to those in need.
I intend to continue to work patiently with you and Bunya and a few others until you too, see that it is the help being given to the needy that counts and an atheist helping out should be praised and so should a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a gay or a Republican.
I am happy to work elbow-to-elbow with a conservative in helping those in need. I am just as happy to work with an atheist or an immigrant or people better looking than I. It’s the work that counts, not the ideology of the person giving the help. One of these days you guys will see that.
tracey marie November 13th, 2015 at 00:25
so does yours suggesting religious organizations don’t have atheists helping
CandideThirtythree November 13th, 2015 at 02:01
I never said that ALL the people in those organizations were atheist, I said that there were tons of secular organizations because you said you didn’t know of any.
Now stop trying twist things around to fit your perceptions of the world, there are a lot of people in the world who claim to be christian just to steal from the collection plates like Creflo Dollar and that Ham guy and the Swaggarts and Jim Bakker and all of the other prosperity gospel creeps.
and with religions taking in over 80 billion dollars a year, if it weren’t for the stealing and the ego stroking temples then there would not be any poverty left in this country but NONE of them spend more than 2% of what they take in on actual charity.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 03:15
I do not believe I said I did not know of any secular organizations that do charity work.
What I believe I said or at least intended to say is where I live, in the charity work I see being done, I am not aware of any groups of atheists pitching in, but I have come across a small number of individual atheists helping out and they are to be praised like everyone else..
I have no idea if that Creflo Dollar guy is a Christian or not, or the Swaggarts, the Baakers or whoever this Ham guy is. It’s possible they are. A lot of awful people claim to be Christians and are.
This means you can get in, too.
We are not a group of perfect people. I have been in meetings of many different denominations and it has always been made clear that we are all sinners who have screwed up so badly there is no way we could ever repay it all.
That’s why we need a Savior.
Yeah, we have standards just like everyone else and just like everyone else we frequently fail to live up to them.
So we readily admit to being a bunch of screw-ups that includes all manner of criminals, jerks and people with bad breath.
Remember what Bill Clinton said?
He said,
“They spent 40 million dollars trying to prove I’m a sinner and I would have told them that for free.”
Christian doctrine is chock full of concepts regarding sin and slack we need.
Grace, for example, is favor given where favor is not merited. Grace is big in Christianity because we fall so short.
Mercy is judgement withheld where judgement is called for.
Mercy is big in Christianity because we know how severely we’d be judged otherwise.
So you can see why forgiveness is likewise such a big topic. We need so much of it because we are so awful.
Also in our doctrine is God loving us when we were dead in trespasses and sins. He doesn’t love us because we earned it because we are not capable of earning it.
I hope this helps you understand Christianity better. These concepts are found in the major denominations and become clear when one knows how to research the Bible.
CandideThirtythree November 13th, 2015 at 03:39
I don’t need any, I have always been a good person, I was born with my heart on my sleeve. I tried many churches, I thought it was like a social club but they were all full of really horrible people so I decided that if there was a god, he would not want me hanging around with those people.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 06:43
I wish I could say I was always a good person. I think I do ok if it’s all averaged out and the teacher grades on a curve.
But I’ve also done some rotten things and have hurt more people than I care to remember. It’s still painful to think of some of it, even though it may have been 30 or 40 years ago.
I was raised going to church but then didn’t have to go and let it slide.
I once joined a church for business contacts, but it didn’t do any good.
What did it for me was when I went to God and prayed for help. I’m a pretty smart guy but try as I might, I couldn’t figure out that Bible. Pretty soon God put someone before me who offered to teach me the Bible and he did. it changed my life for the better.
I’m sorry you somehow found churches full of awful people. I like to say we don’t find something if we don’t look for it and we often find what we seek. If you sought to be around good people in a church here I am sure you would find it.
Wherever you go on your path, I wish you well. I don’t judge because it is not for me to judge. I’m not qualified and don’t want the job anyway. I have changed and have seen others change. I think we should allow others the space to change course if they want, regardless of where they may decide to go.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:08
Add in Doctors without Borders. And many local government run food banks and food pantries that accept donations from private citizens.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:38
No one is criticizing the good that those you know are doing for those less fortunate. BUT those you know or refer to are not the only ones doing the good works you laud. You’ll recall the story here some months ago about a church run food pantry that refused to allow Atheists to donate or work with that group.
CandideThirtythree November 12th, 2015 at 23:53
me too girlfriend! You know I don’t suffer fools lightly so I feel a migraine coming on LOL.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 23:59
geez right?
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 21:46
He’s been feeling VERY guilt ridden for awhile now…
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 21:55
Notice how he started with calling us bigots then deflects to his programmed response spam.
CandideThirtythree November 12th, 2015 at 23:51
Atheist only make up, what 8% of the population, just how do you think it is humanly possible to do more than the 78% of the country that is christian?
If the Christians were so good at providing for the poor, there would be no poor. Christians take in something like $82.5 billion dollars a year in this country, that would be enough to house every single homeless person, feed all the poor and still have money left over. BUT most of them are keeping it all for themselves so that they can live in mansions and have private jets and Rolex watches.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/08/22/you-give-religions-more-than-82-5-billion-a-year/
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 23:58
his kind of religion.
CandideThirtythree November 13th, 2015 at 00:03
More of the ‘Republican math’ that woman on Fox news was talking about LOL.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:05
Christians are only about 70% of the population.
CandideThirtythree November 13th, 2015 at 01:54
Oh, the news is getting better!! any new stats on the amount of nonbelievers? I haven’t looked it up in awhile LOL.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 02:07
I think that this is the last Pew Research poll results.
‘NONES” are now close to 20%. Atheists are still around 9%.
CandideThirtythree November 13th, 2015 at 03:40
Cool, thanks.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 03:46
Was it Pew? I recall hearing about it and thought it was Gallup. Either way, it was a pretty reliable polling group.
Also either way, both the 78% stat and the 70% stat support my contention about what is happening in my area, if we have an average number of Christian believers.
At least it does when it comes to the food pantries because here, 78% of the food given away by food pantries is given away by faith-based groups and those are overwhelmingly Christians.
So on a percentage of the population basis, the OP’s conclusion is bogus here where I live.
Thanks, guys, for supporting my argument!
I prefer to find agreement rather than arguing so this is cause for celebration.
I’d question your other numbers, depending on what you mean by “NONES.”.
I would guess the number of Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Muslims, believers in Indian faiths, Hindus and Rastafarians are at least as many as the atheists out there.
I don’t see how they would be referred to as “nones” but perhaps you meant to say “other.”
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 01:04
That’s a rather disturbing idea – take away the entire incomes of over 200 million and give it to the homeless.
The result would be to cause over 200 million people to be homeless.
But that’s what you’re proposing, right?
CandideThirtythree: ” most of them are keeping it all for themselves so that they can live in mansions and have private jets and Rolex watches.”
Perhaps where you live, but not here, and this is a pretty affluent area. Very few people around here live in mansions, have private jets or have [authentic] Rolex watches.
I have no idea what the percentage of atheists is around here, and that is the stat one would need.
I also do not claim to be aware of all the charity work taking place here. I have quoted stats at various times here about the numbers of tons of food Christians distribute, and the stat that 78% of the food given away at food pantries is given away by faith-based organizations. If we have the national average of Christians you cite, then the “study” in the OP is debunked at least for this area.
I have posted where I live so you guys can see if you can find atheist outfits doing major amounts of charity work. I’ve posted about what I have witnessed for many years primarily in the city of Fredericksburg and Stafford, Spotsylvania, King George and Caroline Counties in Va.
Yeah, sometimes atheists pitch in. There’s just not very many of them. Maybe they are the only atheists around and 100% of them are volunteering. I have no idea and it’s not that important anyway. More important is the fact that they do, and I love-em for it.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:35
Many Atheists realize that economies of scale works better when the government does things. Some churches limit who and how often a food pantry can be visited. I’ve seen that locally. (members only).
I live in a smaller city so no large scale homeless problems or soup kitchens here. Food banks are run out of small rooms in the back of churches. The public one is in a small store front on a side street.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:03
If you have a conscience, you don’t need religion.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 08:20
Where I live, if you’re homeless and hungry, you don’t need the atheists because they won’t help. The faith-based organizations will help you out, though.
Your point fails to support the allegation in the OP that atheists are more generous than Christians or Muslims. Indeed, nothing you’ve posted has proved the point.
That leaves me feeling victorious, having offered more proof than the entire herd to show the OP’s allegation is false.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 19:31
Name-em, and quote their teachings that say what you claim.
Dwendt44 November 13th, 2015 at 00:41
The Fundamentalist/Evangelical branches of christianity say clearly that FAITH is the way to go, not by works as some denominations preach. That allows those believers to act like fools and worry about getting absolution near the very end of there lives.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 10:53
I think just about every religion says that.
Whether they do or not fails to advance the defense of or rebut the allegation in the OP, which is the issue at hand.
The proposition fails for lack of support.
You guys had 10 or more hours. You had the advantage of numbers – it was like, 5 or 6 of you to just one of me) and the advantage of being far more skilled that I in doing things like internet searches, yet I beat you all by giving more support for my argument than you did for yours.
It was never really a fair fight. I used the blindness that bigotry begets as well as the obsessiveness that is likewise typical of bigots against you all.
I had you surrounded from the beginning…………….
fahvel November 13th, 2015 at 04:03
don’t have to. Just look at the state of kindness in the xian usa.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 10:46
I knew you couldn’t support that point when you made it.
It’s really a time-waster because it fails to advance either side of the debate over the allegation in the OP about who gives more.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 14:43
The “researchers” went to China and only looked at the Christians and Muslims there?
One wonders why they didn’t take a look around where they live. No, wait, I already know.
A few years ago I recall someone posting here from Chicago wasn’t aware of what Christians were doing there and I took the time to look a bunch of them up inform the other user here.
There are quite a few faith-based charities operating there. Perhaps this is why the “researchers” decided to get out of town and go to China and South Africa and omitted other major faiths like Buddhists or Hindus.
Looks like they were trying to tailor their study to achieve a preconceived outcome.
Where I live, when it comes to giving in real life, when it comes to actually helping people in need, people of faith dominate.
As I posted below, 78% of the food distributed at area food pantries and food banks is done so by faith-based organizations. I am involved, but am unaware of any significant atheist organization that contributes, though I have come across a few atheists or agnostics who have pitched in.
The atheists and agnostics don’t appear to have the sort or organization in place to move thousands of tons of goods, nor do I see them organizing and exerting peer pressure on their like-minded brethren to participate. They don’t get together weekly and hear sermons that encourage them to give and give more while providing the infrastructure to do so.
This study may look cute on paper, but it won’t put a hot meal in a homeless person’s belly this winter when it is below freezing and there is a foot of snow on the ground.
And when it gets really bad and the homeless shelters are overflowing, it won’t be the atheists here who will be throwing open their doors taking in large numbers of homeless people – it will be the churches that bigots around here choose to despise.
Dwendt44 November 12th, 2015 at 14:47
That might be because a society has some influence on children growing up is a secular society that cares for people. Foreign countries are often uses as a ‘test case’ for such things. Generosity in this country is also taught by the wide variety of charities and help organizations, many of which have nothing to do with religion or aren’t automatically associated with a belief system.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 15:02
“… that bigots around here choose to despise.”
.
You apparently have no clue what atheist and secularists are doing.
But please, don’t let your ignorance and lack of information stop you from insulting and berating us. We expect that type of behavior from fine Christians, such as yourself.
tracey marie November 12th, 2015 at 16:15
You are proof that xtians are nasty specimens who lie.
maggie November 12th, 2015 at 16:29
there are lots of agnostics and atheists who both volunteer with christian based groups or other non-profits…..you are missing all the other non profits out there…like medical, housing etc….medical would be a huge area of agnostic/atheist money and volunteerism happening…
Lyndia November 12th, 2015 at 17:13
I would volunteer to give away food to the hungry in any church, I just don’t want to be BEATEN OVER THE HEAD WITH JESUS CHRIST. Christians have a tendency to do that and they are quick the judge others. I can’t stand that and their attitude of superiority. I don’t want to live a Christian life, I want to live an ethical life, which is something Christians know nothing about. They don’t do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do. They look for a blessing for EVERYTHING they do, failing to realize, that the blessing is in the deed itself.
maggie November 12th, 2015 at 18:15
try unitarian universalists….i think it would be interesting more small groups of academics or skeptics met to volunteer as a group at soup kitchens …that is make it a regular volunteer beat to volunteer as atheists/agnositics/secularhumanists….there are pastors who are atheist serving various churches of liberal faiths…one of the pastors at my local UU CC (unitarian universalist) congregation….was an atheist….and then the woman who came after him was jewish…..I think she’s still there….once in a while I will go to a service there…the funny thing is I would go to church and then go to my atheist/skeptics meetings on wednesday and see the same people….so there are people out there who embrace buddhism….(no god) and paganism…following the seasons….and you are absolutely right…the ability to give is the blessing itself….have you heard of something called a “mitzvah” it’s jewish…it just means that if you do something for someone….you are not allowed to ask for anything in return…however the receiver of a mitzvah is obligated to give a mitzvah to someone else….that means that the giving is constantly going out….but things eventually come full circle….Mitzvah has allowed me to receive because when I see an opportunity to give I do if I have the capacity…obviously we are not all rich so it’s whatever our talents and resources allow….without any expectation of return…..
Lyndia November 12th, 2015 at 22:05
Thank you. I read about the Unitarians. They were a part of the Second Great Awakening.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 06:23
Please keep it quiet about that. Around here, some think the Second Great Awakening was a wave of deism sweeping the land.
I’ve had some interesting discussions about faith and our Founding Fathers here and they have no clue about either revival.
It’s something I’ve been holding in reserve.
I am fortunate to live in a town billed as “America’s most historic city,” which temds to give my love of history more depth when one can see the sights and walk the streets that people like Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Monroe, Pendleton, the Lees and Mason did back in the day.
Dwendt44 November 12th, 2015 at 23:50
Play it forward is supposedly like the Mitzvah. I haven’t followed that movement to any great detail but ‘pass in one’ is certainly a secular and reasonable way to live.
maggie November 12th, 2015 at 23:57
yeah pay it forward same concept….it just means that what you put out is a gift…and what you receive you are then in debt to the general universe to put out there again….in small everyday ways….and to big things….
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 00:33
Yeah, I like that “do unto others” thing, too.
“love your enemies” can be challenging………….
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 04:10
I can understand your point about being beat over the head (even though it sounds a bit exaggerated). But that is what Christian churches are about. Unfortunately for some, if you’re homeless or hungry the atheist community just sin’t stepping up to provide alternatives to the Christian-run homeless shelters, soup kitchens and food pantries where I live.
I am sorry you have run into some of us who are offensive, but what do you expect from a group of sinners who need forgiveness, mercy, grace and a Savior because we have been so awful there’s no way we could ever pay for our sins?
You are wrong to claim Christians do not know anything about ethics. Come now, you’re talking about over a billion people.
It is not hard to find Christians who do good just because it is the right thing to do. Simply volunteer at your local food pantries or homeless shelter or pitch in with one of their drives to collect coats, hats, blankets, tents or other needed items for the poor and homeless. You’ll meet plenty of them.
If you ever make it to the Fredericksburg, Virginia area I’ll be happy to introduce you to plenty more of them. I hope you won’t object to meeting people like that. They are the kinds of people I like being around.
They love their neighbor in word and deed, even though we are such screw-ups in other areas.
Yes, Lyndia, we are so damned awful that you, too, could get in.
Here is a link to a very interesting book by a man whose ethics I think you would admire. I drive past the home of Moncure daniel Conway fairly often. He was a prominent abolitionist and he writes about his experiences with Lincoln, Emmerson and others of his day. The story of his taking his family’s slaves to freedom is a moving part of the book. One hopes you don’t mind that he was also an ordained minister:
https://archive.org/stream/conwaysexperienc01conwuoft/conwaysexperienc01conwuoft_djvu.txt
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 20:06
I agree. I have run into some of them.
Here, they are far outnumbered by people of faith.
Regardless of belief, all who pitch in deserve praise.
In terms of providing medical care, faith-based organizations here have been providing such help for a looooong time.
In terms of housing the poor, besides the government one must go to Micah Ecumenical Ministries for the bulk of it. Habitat for Humanity helps out too, and I have met or know many at Habitat and they are mostly Christians.
The 2 homeless shelters here are run by faith-based outfits.
Just about all the soup kitchens are run out of churches.
The efforts to collect tents, blankets, hats, coats, gloves and shoes for the homeless here are almost entirely done by faith-based organizations.
I have repeatedly asked those who disagree with me to look into what faith-based organizations are doing where they live because I doubt it is much different. So far, no takers.
CandideThirtythree November 12th, 2015 at 23:37
Who do you think is giving food to those food banks? Atheists do not need sermons, they pitch in wherever they see people in need. We also don’t go around beating our chests and waving around donation slips for people to look at us. I give lots to charity every year and I never ask for a receipt because I think it is smarmy to give something just to get something in return. No itemized deductions for me even though I have given away 6 cars to people who needed them already.
Besides…Less than 2% of the money given to churches goes to the poor, almost all of the money goes to the building, land, lighting, heating, insuring, landscaping, maintaining of the church building, salaries, books, musical equipment, sound equipment, vehicles and their upkeep, accountants etc.
Even without paying taxes, churches are some of the most expensive businesses to run because there is no return on the investment and all the income comes from the same handful of people in the pews each week.
Churches have Too high of an overhead to be practical, so every time I redecorate my house, I give all the furniture, dishes, drapes, linens etc. to some friends who find people in need to distribute it to.
Sometimes my husband brings it to the jobsite and lets the Mexicans who work on his crew take what they need. Sometimes when there is a lot of rain and they can’t work and don’t get paid, I cook up everything in the freezer and hubby takes it them. Hubby is the superintendent so he gets paid whether he works or not. Around here, everyone pitches in when someone is sick or injured or old, mowing grass or cleaning gutters, bringing generators when it floods etc. No church needed.
Dwendt44 November 12th, 2015 at 23:46
the larger the church, the larger the pay for the clergy. The minister, the assistant minister, the music director, etc..etc… And some of that pay is tax exempt as well. Some cities plow the snow in church parking lots and for their schools. If large enough, the school qualifies for voucher payments. The utilities are charged at a cut rate too.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 05:42
I KNOW who is giving to our local food banks because I see it, or at least some of it.
Some comes from big corporations, some comes from local businesses and other stuff is donated by individuals.
A lot of the food pantries are located in churches (or in church outbuildings) and a lot of that gets donated by members of that church.
Christians don’t need sermons to donate, either. But having those sermons and being among others pitching in and having the opportunity right there in front of them tends to help people be even more selfless. It’s a lot easier to do even more when you’re surrounded by others doing the same.
It doesn’t matter to me what the spiritual beliefs are of someone giving. Unlike several members of the herd around here, I don’t praise some but not others simply because I disagree with them.
I don’t know if your 2% stat is accurate or not where I live, but I’ll give you another stat:
78% of the food given away in food pantries here is given away by faith-based groups.
Here’s another one for ya to chew on:
100% of our homeless shelters are run by people of faith.
I was a part of a long, hard struggle to get and maintain the first one and it was led by ministers of several churches here.
I don’t think a church needs to be a profit-generating enterprise anyway. The Founding Fathers recognized their value to the community and that value can’t be measured. When a hurricane, flood or tornado hits, where do people congregate?
Churches, that’s where. I don’t see how one can place a value on what they do at such times.
In another thread I wrote of a Catholic cardinal I knew who, in the early 80s, began his day by visiting AIDS patients wasting away, alone, abandoned by friends and family because of the fear back then. How do you place a value on that?
Come down here and let me show you around poor, rural Caroline County where 200 families don’t even have running water. Come see what the churches do in that community to help those in need. It’s extraordinary and so what if they don’t turn a tidy profit?
The conclusions of the study described in the OP are bogus, at least in terms of where I live and I think what I describe being done here is pretty typical of the rest of the country.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 16:29
He was not being fair to you, probably for not knowing you well from here. People can diverge but be cordial despite the differences, we hope.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 16:44
Oh, we’re VERY familiar with Burqa and his once-a-year visits to Liberaland. Don’t be fooled. He’s not the saint you think he is. He’s here to garner attention for Christians who he thinks aren’t getting the attention he thinks they want and deserve – and to demean those he thinks are beneath him.
Gina Bousquet November 12th, 2015 at 16:48
I don’t find him demeaning and if he was so, then it was reciprocate between you both
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 17:07
I think we can understand Bunya feeling that way when we consider the contrast between what we have been posting on the subject of giving.
I have been pointing out who is actually feeding the hungry where I live. I posted the meal calendar and have also discussed those who collect blankets, hats, shoes, tents and other needed items. I have referred to previous posts where I gave links to food pantries here and the fact that 78% of the food given away is done by faith-based organizations.
Bunya’s posts are on a lower level – name-calling, carping, etc.
The contrast is rather stark and one does not need to characterize the difference, but merely to point them out to the reader and let the reader decide.
Bunya could choose to let us know what the churches are doing where she lives, tell us who is running the homeless shelters, food pantries, ood banks, soup kitchens, etc., but to date has declined substantive replies along those lines.
I’d rather not argue. I’d prefer to find agreement and would gladly praise any atheist outfit doing what I see faith-based outfits doing.
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 20:57
I would say you’re the one on the lower level, especially when you accuse me of name calling when all you’ve done so far is accuse us of bigotry with absolutely no proof whatsoever. That’s about as low as a person can go.
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 16:59
Got anything substantive on who is helping the poor and homeless where you live, Bunya?
Anything at all?
Bunya November 12th, 2015 at 20:56
No. I haven’t given much thought as to who gives more and why. Some of us have more important things to worry about than to opine on what others are doing or saying.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 07:12
Bunya: “No. I haven’t given much thought as to who gives more and why. Some of us have more important things to worry about than to opine on what others are doing or saying.”
You don’t appear to have given any thought to what goes on in your own neighborhood. So that makes you unqualified to comment on who is running the soup kitchens, food pantries, homeless shelter or otherwise serving the poor.
That you don’t have time to see who is helping those in need, much less bother to help out is evident. I shall try to continue being patient with you while we work out this selfishness issue.
That’s ok, I am sure where you live that there are people of faith doing for those in need what you don’t have time for.
That’s the way it is with denizens of the peanut gallery. The best they can offer is to watch others get the job done. They jeer and criticize but scatter when the call goes out to help those in need.
We’ll take this in stages. I may be a bit rusty because I have to remember back 45 years and get you caught up.
I’m giving you an up vote for your honesty.
Bunya November 13th, 2015 at 11:09
“You don’t appear to have given any thought to what goes on in your own neighborhood.”
You’re right. Unlike you, some of us have more important things to do than to prove something so stupid as why Christians are so much better than Atheists.
.
“So that makes you unqualified to comment on who is running the soup kitchens.”
I never claimed to be qualified. That’s just another lie.
.
“…much less bother to help out is evident…”
Can I see your proof of that?
.
“… people of faith doing for those in need what you don’t have time for.”
Great! Good for them!
.
“…That’s the way it is with denizens of the peanut gallery…”
There’s an old saying. It goes “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”. Never heard that one, huh?
.
“I’m giving you an up vote for your honesty.”
Honesty. You should try it some time.
whatthe46 November 12th, 2015 at 21:07
you have no idea who you’re dealing with there do you?
amersham46 November 12th, 2015 at 18:46
Too many big words , fundamentalists would not be able understand the story
burqa November 12th, 2015 at 19:47
This study is obviously bogus.
They went to China and only looked at Muslims and Christians?
Their “study” does not comport with what I have seen in various places I’ve lived or with the people I’ve known.
We have a lot of homeless people where I live, despite above average affluence.
When it comes to giving, the people of faith are the ones who established and run the 2 homeless shelters we have.
Here, people of faith distribute 78% of the food given out by food pantries.
Here, faith-based organizations do the overwhelming majority of the collection of food, clothing, blankets, tents, hats, school supplies and other things for those in need. When you look at secular organizations doing charity work here, one finds them overwhelmingly run by and staffed by people of faith.
Here, hungry people go to faith-based organizations to be fed free hot meals.
This “study” puts no food in any hungry bellies.
Once I spent some time looking up these kinds of efforts in Chicago, where these “researchers” are based and found pretty much the same thing and posted it here.
These “researchers” don’t seem to be aware of what is happening in their own neighborhoods, much less the rest of the country or world, for that matter.
I find it interesting that those who disagree with me are remarkably uninterested in finding out what is taking place in the real world when it comes to meeting real needs of real people and identifying who is doing how much giving.
William November 13th, 2015 at 08:25
Spot on.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 08:30
Well thanks, William.
Good grief, there must be 200 or so posts below. I took on the whole herd and not one of them posted anything to prove the allegation that atheists were more generous than Christians but I did post facts indicating this is not true.
So I’m cracking my knuckles and leaning way back in my La-Z-Boy, hands behind my head in victory……
William November 13th, 2015 at 08:57
Well, I’m a believer in freedom from and freedom of religion. Christianity is about following the teachings of Christ. Jesus advocated for mercy , charity and compassion.
When religion compels a person to love and care for his fellow man, I find that to be a beautiful thing.
That said, there are some very generous and compassionate atheists in this world.
I suppose religion is a lot like any other belief or emotion. It’s not the belief that should be the subject of scrutiny, but rather what you do with it.
I grew up in the shadow of Father Bakers basilica in Lackawanna New York.
I’m not so much a fan of Catholicism as much as I am a fan of a guy who built an orphanage, a hospital and a place to feed the hungry.
Further. Although I consider myself to be a man of science, one must consider an open heart as well as an open mind.
burqa November 13th, 2015 at 09:55
I am with you on the freedom and on the existence of many fine, admirable atheists and agnostics.
I think if you scroll to the very bottom of the page you may favor the friend I posted about.
I spent years studying the Bible, not commentaries and targums, but the text itself. I used to be able to go into the most arcane minutia and could compare a number of critical manuscripts by heart. The same with the critical Greek texts. I still have a number of 3-ring binders full of the notes I took.
It was a fine exercise and one of the things it helped me to understand is the greatest thing of all and the greatest law of all which is to love with the love God gave us to love with.
Do that and everything else falls into place.
Where people mess up is when they confuse this love with human love, which tends to be more limited in scope.
This love will compel us to act in that love and in all we will be pleasing to God.
There are many aspects of it I won’t go into here, but the one that blows me away the most is the command to love our enemies.
That one’s a showstopper.
Obewon November 12th, 2015 at 21:52
1. It’s Science: 6 Reasons Gay Parents Are The Best Parents! http://www.yourtango.com/2014220316/its-science-6-reasons-gay-parents-make-best-parents
2. New Study Confirms Same-Sex Couples Make Great Parents
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/07/10/2277011/another-study-confirms-same-sex-couples-make-great-parents/
3. Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents! http://www.livescience.com/17913-advantages-gay-parents.html
Lyndia November 12th, 2015 at 22:06
I hate to say this, but that is an ugly kid.