Clinic Closings Lead To Increase In Black Market Abortion Drugs
Sales of Misoprostol, a drug intended to prevent stomach ulcers but also used to induce abortions, are rising as desperate women seek ways to terminate pregnancies. Cartons of the drug are now valued at £130 [$197], as its value rises due to Texan women turning to the black market to terminate their pregnancies, according to a Sunday Times report.
At least one woman is now in prison for trying to assist her teenage daughter end her pregnancy.
Click here for reuse options!The online market for drugs such as mifepristone, used in terminating pregnancy and inducing labour, is also increasing. Jennifer Whalen from Pennsylvania is serving a prison sentence of 18 months for obtaining abortion drugs over the internet for her 16-year-old daughter. The 39-year-old bought mifepristone online for £30 [$46]. The family live 75 miles from the nearest clinic and Whalen could not afford to take time off work to make the journey which would have required an overnight stay.
Copyright 2015 Liberaland
By: Mark Quincy Adams
A proud 'pragmatic progressive' Mark Quincy Adams has been a political
talk show host and prolific pontificator since 1992. Find him on Facebook and Twitter @politicalglutton
Carla Akins January 20th, 2015 at 13:33
Coathangers are next. Hope the GOP is proud.
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 14:35
I am shivering
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 16:54
Let’s hope not.
Carla Akins January 20th, 2015 at 14:33
Coathangers are next. Hope the GOP is proud.
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 15:35
I am shivering
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 17:54
Let’s hope not.
OldLefty January 20th, 2015 at 13:39
“Clinic Closings Lead To Increase In Black Market Abortion Drugs”
Of course it does.
From 2012;
Looking to Mexico for Alternative to Abortion Clinics
https://www.texastribune.org/2012/08/12/looking-mexico-alternative-abortion-clinics/
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 12:23
Of course, only the well off can afford a trip to Mexico or other forward thinking country. But that’s what the conservative elite want. the poor can fend for themselves and the well off and the rich can fly off for a week long vacation so their darling daughters can get ‘fixed’ instead of embarrassing her parents.
OldLefty January 20th, 2015 at 14:39
“Clinic Closings Lead To Increase In Black Market Abortion Drugs”
Of course it does.
From 2012;
Looking to Mexico for Alternative to Abortion Clinics
https://www.texastribune.org/2012/08/12/looking-mexico-alternative-abortion-clinics/
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 13:23
Of course, only the well off can afford a trip to Mexico or other forward thinking country. But that’s what the conservative elite want. the poor can fend for themselves and the well off and the rich can fly off for a week long vacation so their darling daughters can get ‘fixed’ instead of embarrassing her parents.
Suzanne McFly January 20th, 2015 at 13:53
I went through a time machine, right? Right?
Who didn’t see this coming? This is simply the next step, and the following one is someone dying because they are using these drugs the wrong way with no doctor in site to ensure the welfare of the patient.
Dwendt44 January 20th, 2015 at 14:16
The early attempts at outlawing abortion altogether lead some ingenious person to invent the Do It Yourself abortion kit. It faded at the early outlaw attempts faded.
It needs to return and be updated and developed more.
Of course, I’m sure the rabid right would find a way to outlaw that devise too.
Suzanne McFly January 20th, 2015 at 17:06
I am pretty sure all birth control will be outlawed shortly after they completely outlaw abortion. So either we will be over populated quickly or we will all be walking around stressed out and pissed off. Something better give before that happens.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 00:37
You can rest easy, it ain’t happening.
Ignore the fear mongers whimpering from under the bed, terrified by their imagination and inability to think clearly and realistically.
Suzanne McFly January 21st, 2015 at 06:52
I am shocked many states have gotten as far as they have by closing down clinics that offer abortions. It is as if we are giving our rights away and no one feels they should fight for them.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 07:09
I am too. It is most distressing. I think this will be something that will ebb and flow. You know better than I the wide range of services to women these clinics provided and I think once women organize and get moving on these closings, we will see those clinics return.
Women are just too powerful a slice of the electorate and they just need to get together and vote and pressure legislators.
While I think these clinics will come back, it bothers me that women will have to wait.
Though women have Hillary and Elizabeth Warren to look to, I think fairly soon we will see new female leaders emerge to press this issue and set things aright.
Suzanne McFly January 21st, 2015 at 17:25
Our entire society has become so complacent and have not felt the need to fight for anything. We should be in the streets over healthcare, gun control, police abuse, false wars……but yet a lot of our population are noming away on their ben and jerry’s not giving a clam shell about what is going on right in front of us. If the revolutionaries felt like many of us do, we would be subjects of the Queen.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 20:03
Yes ma’am, very well put, those are my thoughts, and you put them more succinctly that I could.
One of the things I find irksome is the fact that we have to keep fighting the same battles over and over again.
I know a couple people who recently moved to South Carolina and experienced extraordinary ordeals just to get a driver’s license. I am sure the hoops they make people jump through are because they require such ID to vote. It’s a form of poll tax the way they do it (one requirement is a statement from a bank proving you have an account).
You are so right about complacency, too. Sometimes I think it is a lack of dynamic leaders who are able to mobilize people. On further thought, like so many things in human affairs, it is more complex than that. We need to do a better job educating the younger generations. Many times I have described the riots of the 60s to young people who had no idea the extent of the destruction. They have no idea we once had those ugly brown clouds of smog hanging over our major cities. When we draw a line from where we were to where we are we can not only see the journey we have been on but the direction we are headed or should be headed.
Suzanne McFly January 22nd, 2015 at 15:11
Our politicians may not be the brightest, but they can create new fees/taxes in their sleep. The barricades they have created for a person to obtain a license is a new Jim Crow type of law. We continue to address the big issues and we ignore the little ones that prevent the big ones from happening. We need to knock down these illegal impediments that have been created to stop a segment from using their right to vote, and then we can address the issues about racial inequalities that continue to occur without repercussions.
I don’t understand how we pass over the small things and keep going straight for gold. The ACA was a fluke, even though the left did not get the single payer option we wanted, we still have an ability provided for ever citizen to be insured. That was a big thing we passed with a democratic Congress and Senate, but we no longer have that luxury and we need to fight for the little things now. That is where the citizens will find their power. We wanted the abuses of the police force addressed by multiple districts by asking for cameras, we got them. We need to bring up background checks for guns and draw up a strong support again, but not half way between election day. If we start organizing six months before an election, the population will be stirred and people will vote. I don’t know if I am making sense, but I just think we need small steps so we can conquer big problems. I completely agree with you in so many ways and a leader will definitely be able to help us coalesce around issues and focus us on what we need to push for now. We lose focus too quickly and we need someone to herd us cats into a belief we all feel strongly for.
burqa January 23rd, 2015 at 23:54
I so enjoy thoughtful responses such as yours.
I am not thrilled with the ACA, but it’s a good start. Hopefully we can get it changed. I, for one, prefer single payer.
And yes, you make perfect sense.
Suzanne McFly January 20th, 2015 at 14:53
I went through a time machine, right? Right?
Who didn’t see this coming? This is simply the next step, and the following one is someone dying because they are using these drugs the wrong way with no doctor in site to ensure the welfare of the patient.
Dwendt44 January 20th, 2015 at 15:16
The early attempts at outlawing abortion altogether lead some ingenious person to invent the Do It Yourself abortion kit. It faded at the early outlaw attempts faded.
It needs to return and be updated and developed more.
Of course, I’m sure the rabid right would find a way to outlaw that devise too.
Suzanne McFly January 20th, 2015 at 18:06
I am pretty sure all birth control will be outlawed shortly after they completely outlaw abortion. So either we will be over populated quickly or we will all be walking around stressed out and pissed off. Something better give before that happens.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 01:37
You can rest easy, it ain’t happening.
Ignore the fear mongers whimpering from under the bed, terrified by their imagination and inability to think clearly and realistically.
Suzanne McFly January 21st, 2015 at 07:52
I am shocked many states have gotten as far as they have by closing down clinics that offer abortions. It is as if we are giving our rights away and no one feels they should fight for them.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 08:09
I am too. It is most distressing.
I think this will be something that will ebb and flow. You know better than I the wide range of services to women these clinics provided and I think once women organize and get moving on these closings, we will see those clinics return.
Women are just too powerful a slice of the electorate and they just need to get together and vote and pressure legislators.
While I think these clinics will come back, it bothers me that women will have to wait.
Though women have Hillary and Elizabeth Warren to look to, I think fairly soon we will see new female leaders emerge to press this issue and set things aright.
Suzanne McFly January 21st, 2015 at 18:25
Our entire society has become so complacent and have not felt the need to fight for anything. We should be in the streets over healthcare, gun control, police abuse, false wars……but yet a lot of our population are noming away on their ben and jerry’s not giving a clam shell about what is going on right in front of us. If the revolutionaries felt like many of us do, we would be subjects of the Queen.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 21:03
Yes ma’am, very well put, those are my thoughts, and you put them more succinctly that I could.
One of the things I find irksome is the fact that we have to keep fighting the same battles over and over again.
I know a couple people who recently moved to South Carolina and experienced extraordinary ordeals just to get a driver’s license. I am sure the hoops they make people jump through are because they require such ID to vote. It’s a form of poll tax the way they do it (one requirement is a statement from a bank proving you have an account).
You are so right about complacency, too. Sometimes I think it is a lack of dynamic leaders who are able to mobilize people. On further thought, like so many things in human affairs, it is more complex than that. We need to do a better job educating the younger generations. Many times I have described the riots of the 60s to young people who had no idea the extent of the destruction. They have no idea we once had those ugly brown clouds of smog hanging over our major cities. When we draw a line from where we were to where we are we can not only see the journey we have been on but the direction we are headed or should be headed.
Suzanne McFly January 22nd, 2015 at 16:11
Our politicians may not be the brightest, but they can create new fees/taxes in their sleep. The barricades they have created for a person to obtain a license is a new Jim Crow type of law. We continue to address the big issues and we ignore the little ones that prevent the big ones from happening. We need to knock down these illegal impediments that have been created to stop a segment from using their right to vote, and then we can address the issues about racial inequalities that continue to occur without repercussions.
I don’t understand how we pass over the small things and keep going straight for gold. The ACA was a fluke, even though the left did not get the single payer option we wanted, we still have an ability provided for ever citizen to be insured. That was a big thing we passed with a democratic Congress and Senate, but we no longer have that luxury and we need to fight for the little things now. That is where the citizens will find their power. We wanted the abuses of the police force addressed by multiple districts by asking for cameras, we got them. We need to bring up background checks for guns and draw up a strong support again, but not half way between election day. If we start organizing six months before an election, the population will be stirred and people will vote. I don’t know if I am making sense, but I just think we need small steps so we can conquer big problems. I completely agree with you in so many ways and a leader will definitely be able to help us coalesce around issues and focus us on what we need to push for now. We lose focus too quickly and we need someone to herd us cats into a belief we all feel strongly for.
burqa January 24th, 2015 at 00:54
I so enjoy thoughtful responses such as yours.
I am not thrilled with the ACA, but it’s a good start. Hopefully we can get it changed. I, for one, prefer single payer.
And yes, you make perfect sense.
whatthe46 January 20th, 2015 at 14:15
meanwhile, before the sentence was overturned, a man raped his highschool student, who later killed herself, was sentenced to 31 days in county jail. and this woman receives an 18 month prison sentence! kiss my _________ all day long.
whatthe46 January 20th, 2015 at 15:15
meanwhile, before the sentence was overturned, a man raped his highschool student, who later killed herself, was sentenced to 31 days in county jail. and this woman receives an 18 month prison sentence! kiss my _________ all day long.
Foundryman January 20th, 2015 at 14:33
Making end runs around the constitution seems to be what the right wing christian fanatics call patriotism. As long as it gets them reelected, they will continue.
Foundryman January 20th, 2015 at 15:33
Making end runs around the constitution seems to be what the right wing christian fanatics call patriotism. As long as it gets them reelected, they will continue.
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 14:34
The “constituional” crys from the teabaggs ring hollow
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 15:34
The “constituional” crys from the teabaggs ring hollow
Bunya January 20th, 2015 at 14:35
Are you kidding? This is great news! Now drug dealers won’t be the only ones peddling their wares/services on the street. Just think! Anybody can say he’s/she’s proficient in abortions and build up a clientele of desperate women. Best yet, these guy don’t need no stinkin’ malpractice insurance coverage! If something goes wrong? Who cares? Just dump them on the nearest hospital stoop! Yep, life will be good for charlatans and snake oil salesmen.
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 16:53
Yes, the glory of the free market!
Bunya January 20th, 2015 at 15:35
Are you kidding? This is great news! Now drug dealers won’t be the only ones peddling their wares/services on the street. Just think! Anybody can say he’s/she’s proficient in abortions and build up a clientele of desperate women. Best yet, these guy don’t need no stinkin’ malpractice insurance coverage! If something goes wrong? Who cares? Just dump them on the nearest hospital stoop! Yep, life will be good for charlatans and snake oil salesmen.
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 17:53
Yes, the glory of the free market!
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 14:36
Do they honestly believe by making it impossible to have a safe abortion that women will no longer have them?t
Foundryman January 20th, 2015 at 14:38
They don’t care the harm it does, I’d say it has more to do with them thinking they are on a mission from god.
Bunya January 20th, 2015 at 14:49
I’m sure they’re well aware of that fact. The problem is, they don’t care if women die. They hold the old Christian belief that, “we can’t choose one life over another”, so they may as well let both die.
William January 20th, 2015 at 17:23
True Christians wait until AFTER the kid is born.
Dwendt44 January 20th, 2015 at 23:57
And that’s the short list.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 00:33
Communist doctrine to impose an atheist society justified the use of famine to achieve their ends. Lenin intentionally caused a famine that killed 5 million people in the region where he grew up.
Among the first to die was the children, in massive numbers.
The Black Book of Communism, edited by Stephane Courtois and 5 others, has pictures of dozens of dead children in the streets of Kiev. It’s pretty horrific stuff, but excusable when you’re trying to create the “New Soviet Man”!
The effort to create this society of atheists killed 100 million people in about 73 years.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 12:26
It took a little longer for christians to kill a million mostly women for supposedly being witches. It took less time for christians to practice genocide against the Native Americans during the 19th century. It took close to that long for christians to enslave millions of African Americans; those that didn’t die in the process that is.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 19:40
Given your foray into fiction, above, I’ll need a reputable historic source for your stat of 1 million alleged witches being killed.
But even if it is true, your point is that it took them longer to kill 1 percent of the number the atheist commies killed in less time?
That’s the point you’re hanging your hat on?
If so, I’ll let it sit.
I await you finding an occurrence of mass murder greater than 100 million in about 73 years that accompanied the enslavement of a third of the world’s population.
Why bother?
You should know by now you can’t match that. Why not just adopt a more reasonable standard and apply it consistently to both sides? Then you won’t have me throwing up the far greater crimes against humanity committed by the atheist commies according to their doctrine. This is a trump card you can’t beat and there is a better way to proceed.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 23:20
OK, I see the flaw in your thinking. That a large number of people died while a communist authoritarian government was in control, you assume that ALL of those were intentional. OR that somehow, that fact that many of those communists were Atheist.
That you rely on a ardent anti-communist who exaggerates and equates deaths with the government at the time is somehow not surprising any longer. A famine that was caused by natural reasons and the devastation of war, as the Soviets suffered, is some how the governments fault. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. The draining off of assets for war left the agricultural areas a deficit of farm animals (mostly horses) and a drought was the cause of most of those deaths. NOT because the government was communist or Atheist.
Those deaths from the Soviet famine and the great Chinese famine of the 40’s were largely drought caused. I’ve yet to find any evidence of a communist government ‘causing’ a drought on purpose. Ineptitude, lack of foresight, perhaps, but not intentional.
Try reading some other authorities on communist misdeeds. I’m sure there are a few with a less jaundiced eye that just maybe a bit more objective about the cause and effect.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 23:31
I see no fiction. The deaths attributed to the witch hunts of the middle ages is estimated to be between several hundred thousand and 5 million. So 1 million is a reasonable estimate as many were not documented and several million seems way to high. You can make your own estimate as I’m sure you will.
burqa January 23rd, 2015 at 23:25
No flaw. Check the Black Book of Communism’s text and footnotes. The deaths attributed were those that were indeed intentional. In a number of places the book quotes orders from Lenin, Stalin and others from the RTsKhIDNI archives and other sources.
The reasons they either induced or exacerbated famines are documented in the book.
Atheism was a feature of the new society that the communists attempted to build. Repressing if not entirely stamping out religion was an important part of their doctrine, and it was repeated under a number of communist regimes, as were famines that were the result of their actions.
Stephane Courtois and the other 5 editors are not “ardent anti-communists.” That’s just you making stuff up.
Most of them were or are communists.
They are also distinguished scholars and the book is a seminal work in the field.
Sorry, if you’re going to impeach their qualifications you will have to continue to resort to fiction.
They are not “anti” anything – they are pro-truth and the book received high praise when it came out and continues to be regarded that way by scholars.
They counted the deaths they could document came from communist government actions and make mention of other occasions when large numbers were killed, but were not counted because figures were not available.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 19:48
LOL!
I’m imagining a metaphorical comparison where, after a baseball game, a person on the team that scored one run is claiming victory over an opponent that scored 100 runs.
Gruel doesn’t get much thinner than that.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 00:26
None of those verses is in the Christian doctrine.
sorry.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 01:14
They are all biblical. Either the whole bible applies or none of it applies.
Jesus says so.
Christians prefer bombs, hanging, shooting, drowning, and other forms of torture on those that ‘don’t measure up’.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 02:15
Nope nope nopenopenope.
Most of them are in the Law and Jesus said he came to finish the Law.
Further, in the part addressed to Christians it says some of the Bible is for our doctrine, the rest is for our learning.
So we can learn from those who were under the Law, but not be under it ourselves, because after all, it says “Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe.”
This is pretty fundamental stuff. Not knowing it shows you don’t know what you’re talking about, but are trying to twist it to fit a false preconception.
We got a whole different deal going.
There’s nothing in the Christian doctrine that endorses “bombs, hanging, shooting, drowning, and other forms of torture on those that ‘don’t measure up’.”
If you think so, please cite the chapter and verse.
There’s only one law given to Christians.
Can you cite it?
No?
Well then you don’t know much about our doctrine, do you….
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 12:21
Jesus said he came to ‘fulfill the law’, he did NOT say he ended it.
He was a Jew through and through. Jesus also said, in parable: ”
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me”
Luke 19:27
And where exactly did Jesus say that the law is divided into two parts- or did you make that up like most true believers do?
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 19:08
The Greek and Aramaic manuscripts, plus when we look at all the verses on the subject are quite clear that what he did was complete – finish off – the Law. This also agrees with the greater, wider context of the doctrine from book to book, administration to administration.
Sorry, but you’re just poorly informed and therefore in no place to form conclusions.
You are resorting to fiction by claiming I said Jesus divided the Bible into two sections.
He divided the Bible between the Law, the prophets and the psalms in Luke 24. The usage of the figure of speech polysyndeton clarifies the intention to not mix them together, but to see them as distinctly separate parts of the whole and not to be confused with one another.
Further, in the doctrine addressed to Christians it is written, “Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe.”
That is why, for example, under the Law they had holy days and it is written Christians have no holy days (but if someone wants to have one, don’t hassle them).
It is as foolish of you to try to instruct a Christian on Christianity as it would be for me to try to instruct a Buddhist on Buddhism.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 00:39
Where is that notion found in the Christian doctrine?
Chapter and verse, please.
I’ll thank you ahead of time for the quote and scripture reference.
Bunya January 21st, 2015 at 14:11
I didn’t say it was from the bible.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 20:23
Then you would have been referring to an erroneous belief that had as much to do with Christianity as the designated hitter rule in baseball, were one to note attitudes toward that rule held by a group of Christians.
Bunya January 21st, 2015 at 20:40
Good for you.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 21:17
Resolving that point is good for both of us!
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 12:13
It was church doctrine for ages.
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 15:07
They DON’T care
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 16:52
No, it’s not that well thought through.
tracey marie January 20th, 2015 at 15:36
Do they honestly believe by making it impossible to have a safe abortion that women will no longer have them?t
Foundryman January 20th, 2015 at 15:38
They don’t care the harm it does, I’d say it has more to do with them thinking they are on a mission from god.
Bunya January 20th, 2015 at 15:49
I’m sure they’re well aware of that fact. The problem is, they don’t care if women die. They hold the old Christian belief that, “we can’t choose one life over another”, so they may as well let both die.
William January 20th, 2015 at 18:23
True Christians wait until AFTER the kid is born.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 00:57
And that’s the short list.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 01:33
Communist doctrine to impose an atheist society justified the use of famine to achieve their ends. Lenin intentionally caused a famine that killed 5 million people in the region where he grew up.
Among the first to die was the children, in massive numbers.
The Black Book of Communism, edited by Stephane Courtois and 5 others, has pictures of dozens of dead children in the streets of Kiev. It’s pretty horrific stuff, but excusable when you’re trying to create the “New Soviet Man”!
The effort to create this society of atheists killed 100 million people in about 73 years.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 13:26
It took a little longer for christians to kill a million mostly women for supposedly being witches. It took less time for christians to practice genocide against the Native Americans during the 19th century. It took close to that long for christians to enslave millions of African Americans; those that didn’t die in the process that is.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 20:40
Given your foray into fiction, above, I’ll need a reputable historic source for your stat of 1 million alleged witches being killed.
But even if it is true, your point is that it took them longer to kill 1 percent of the number the atheist commies killed in less time?
That’s the point you’re hanging your hat on?
If so, I’ll let it sit.
I await you finding an occurrence of mass murder greater than 100 million in about 73 years that accompanied the enslavement of a third of the world’s population.
Why bother?
You should know by now you can’t match that. Why not just adopt a more reasonable standard and apply it consistently to both sides? Then you won’t have me throwing up the far greater crimes against humanity committed by the atheist commies according to their doctrine. This is a trump card you can’t beat and there is a better way to proceed.
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 00:20
OK, I see the flaw in your thinking. That a large number of people died while a communist authoritarian government was in control, you assume that ALL of those were intentional. OR that somehow, that fact that many of those communists were Atheist.
That you rely on a ardent anti-communist who exaggerates and equates deaths with the government at the time is somehow not surprising any longer. A famine that was caused by natural reasons and the devastation of war, as the Soviets suffered, is some how the governments fault. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. The draining off of assets for war left the agricultural areas a deficit of farm animals (mostly horses) and a drought was the cause of most of those deaths. NOT because the government was communist or Atheist.
Those deaths from the Soviet famine and the great Chinese famine of the 40’s were largely drought caused. I’ve yet to find any evidence of a communist government ‘causing’ a drought on purpose. Ineptitude, lack of foresight, perhaps, but not intentional.
Try reading some other authorities on communist misdeeds. I’m sure there are a few with a less jaundiced eye that just maybe a bit more objective about the cause and effect.
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 00:31
I see no fiction. The deaths attributed to the witch hunts of the middle ages is estimated to be between several hundred thousand and 5 million. So 1 million is a reasonable estimate as most were not documented and several million seems way to high. You can make your own estimate as I’m sure you will.
burqa January 24th, 2015 at 00:25
No flaw. Check the Black Book of Communism’s text and footnotes. The deaths attributed were those that were indeed intentional. In a number of places the book quotes orders from Lenin, Stalin and others from the RTsKhIDNI archives and other sources.
The reasons they either induced or exacerbated famines are documented in the book. They document, for example, occasions when the army was sent in to seize all the food.
Atheism was a feature of the new society that the communists attempted to build. Repressing if not entirely stamping out religion was an important part of their doctrine, and it was repeated under a number of communist regimes, as were famines that were the result of their actions.
Stephane Courtois and the other 5 editors are not “ardent anti-communists.” That’s just you making stuff up.
Most of them were or are communists.
They are also distinguished scholars and the book is a seminal work in the field.
Sorry, if you’re going to impeach their qualifications you will have to continue to resort to fiction.
They are not “anti” anything – they are pro-truth and the book received high praise when it came out and continues to be regarded that way by scholars.
They counted the deaths they could document from communist government actions and make mention of other occasions when large numbers were killed, but were not counted because figures were not available.
Your claim that they included incidental deaths is just you, once again, resorting to fiction.
https://archive.org/details/TheBlackBookofCommunism10
I will be happy to look up various famines they caused if you will admit the facts given. Since the book is online, I’ll just look up the page numbers in my copy and post you links, But I don’t want to go to that trouble if you are going to respond with fiction and refuse to admit the facts presented.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 20:48
LOL!
I’m imagining a metaphorical comparison where, after a baseball game, a person on the team that scored one run is claiming victory over an opponent that scored 100 runs.
Gruel doesn’t get much thinner than that.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 01:26
None of those verses is in the Christian doctrine.
sorry.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 02:14
They are all biblical. Either the whole bible applies or none of it applies.
Jesus says so.
Christians prefer bombs, hanging, shooting, drowning, and other forms of torture on those that ‘don’t measure up’.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 03:15
Nope nope nopenopenope.
Most of them are in the Law and Jesus said he came to finish the Law.
He also divided it into different sections because different sections have to be understood differently.
Further, in the part addressed to Christians it says some of the Bible is for our doctrine, the rest is for our learning.
So we can learn from those who were under the Law, but not be under it ourselves, because after all, it says “Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe.”
This is pretty fundamental stuff. Not knowing it shows you don’t know what you’re talking about, but are trying to twist it to fit a false preconception.
We got a whole different deal going.
There’s nothing in the Christian doctrine that endorses “bombs, hanging, shooting, drowning, and other forms of torture on those that ‘don’t measure up’.”
If you think so, please cite the chapter and verse.
There’s only one law given to Christians.
Can you cite it?
No?
Well then you don’t know much about our doctrine, do you.
HELPFUL HINT: It’s a good idea to know the topic when you’re going to discuss it with someone who is well-educated on the topic. Trying to bluff such a person is a mistake and you’ll just look ignorant and probably foolish. Trying to play google catch-up is not recommended.
Dwendt44 January 21st, 2015 at 13:21
Jesus said he came to ‘fulfill the law’, he did NOT say he ended it.
He was a Jew through and through. Jesus also said, in parable: ”
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me”
Luke 19:27
And where exactly did Jesus say that the law is divided into two parts- or did you make that up like most true believers do?
You are not as ‘well educated’ on the topic as you’d like to believe.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 20:08
The Greek and Aramaic manuscripts, plus when we look at all the verses on the subject are quite clear that what he did was complete – finish off – the Law. This also agrees with the greater, wider context of the doctrine from book to book, administration to administration.
Sorry, but you’re just poorly informed and therefore in no place to form conclusions.
You are resorting to fiction by claiming I said Jesus divided the Bible into two sections.
He divided the Bible between the Law, the prophets and the psalms in Luke 24. The usage of the figure of speech polysyndeton clarifies the intention to not mix them together, but to see them as distinctly separate parts of the whole and not to be confused with one another.
Let me know if you need further instruction on the art and science of figures of speech in ancient writing.
Further, in the doctrine addressed to Christians it is written, “Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe.”
That is why, for example, under the Law they had holy days and it is written Christians have no holy days (but if someone wants to have one, don’t hassle them).
That is why we don’t have to follow the dietary laws.
These examples provide further context that shows Christians are not under the Law. There are many other examples, but I’m not going to bother going too far because what’s the use? It is also written that the Bible is not for unbelievers. They just can’t get it, and this is why they can read the same passage as a believer and be nonplussed, while the believer will get something deep and meaningful from that passage. It’s just out for you until you choose to believe. Sorry, but it’s just going to be a closed book to you and it would be a waste of time for anyone to get into any long debates with you. It would be a waste of their time and yours too.
It is as foolish of you to try to instruct a Christian on Christianity as it would be for me to try to instruct a Buddhist on Buddhism.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 01:39
Where is that notion found in the Christian doctrine?
Chapter and verse, please.
I’ll thank you ahead of time for the quote and scripture reference.
Bunya January 21st, 2015 at 15:11
I didn’t say it was from the bible.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 21:23
Then you would have been referring to an erroneous belief that had as much to do with Christianity as the designated hitter rule in baseball, were one to note attitudes toward that rule held by a group of Christians.
Bunya January 21st, 2015 at 21:40
Good for you.
burqa January 21st, 2015 at 22:17
Resolving that point is good for both of us!
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 13:13
It was church doctrine for ages.
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 16:07
They DON’T care
tiredoftea January 20th, 2015 at 17:52
No, it’s not that well thought through.
robbin January 20th, 2015 at 14:46
wait for it, sooner or later we’ll find out which christian politicians are making a killing off these blackmarket drugs!
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 15:08
They have dry cleaning operations
robbin January 20th, 2015 at 15:46
wait for it, sooner or later we’ll find out which christian politicians are making a killing off these blackmarket drugs!
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 16:08
They have dry cleaning operations
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 15:06
And a run on coat hangers
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 12:12
Most of them are plastic these days, you’ll have to go to the Dollar Tree store.
rg9rts January 22nd, 2015 at 12:55
Dry cleaners
rg9rts January 20th, 2015 at 16:06
And a run on coat hangers
Dwendt44 January 22nd, 2015 at 13:12
Most of them are plastic these days, you’ll have to go to the Dollar Tree store.
rg9rts January 22nd, 2015 at 13:55
Dry cleaners