McCain At His Best
He did give us Sarah Palin but when it comes to torture, few politicians are more eloquent:
Click here for reuse options!The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. It is sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us. But the American people are entitled to it, nonetheless.They must know when the values that define our nation are intentionally disregarded by our security policies, even those policies that are conducted in secret. They must be able to make informed judgments about whether those policies and the personnel who supported them were justified in compromising our values; whether they served a greater good; or whether, as I believe, they stained our national honor, did much harm and little practical good. . .I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering. Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights, which are protected by international conventions the U.S. not only joined, but for the most part authored.
Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: Stuart Shapiro
Stuart is a professor and the Director of the Public Policy
program at the Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers
University. He teaches economics and cost-benefit analysis and studies
regulation in the United States at both the federal and state levels.
Prior to coming to Rutgers, Stuart worked for five years at the Office
of Management and Budget in Washington under Presidents Clinton and
George W. Bush.
edmeyer_able December 9th, 2014 at 17:39
McCain knows that this will open a can of worms when it comes to US POW’s. How can we now sue others for the same acts we have committed? The only way is for prosecution of those responsible no matter how distasteful that is to some.
Tommy6860 December 9th, 2014 at 18:01
This^, so much!
edmeyer_able December 9th, 2014 at 18:39
McCain knows that this will open a can of worms when it comes to US POW’s. How can we now sue others for the same acts we have committed? The only way is for prosecution of those responsible no matter how distasteful that is to some.
Tommy6860 December 9th, 2014 at 19:01
This^, so much!
tiredoftea December 9th, 2014 at 18:22
It’s time for him to step up and lead the charge for further Senate inquiries into why these atrocities were authorized under the W administration. He’s gotten a lot of mileage from being a POW, he’s done damned little when it comes to extending some humanity to those we have tortured.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 19:11
that was a very good comment
tiredoftea December 9th, 2014 at 19:22
It’s time for him to step up and lead the charge for further Senate inquiries into why these atrocities were authorized under the W administration. He’s gotten a lot of mileage from being a POW, he’s done damned little when it comes to extending some humanity to those we have tortured.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 20:11
that was a very good comment
neworleans878 December 9th, 2014 at 18:37
He inflicted the Tundra Twit upon America, that’s torture of an entire nation.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 18:42
But now at least we can laugh at it.
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 19:22
LOL
nola878 December 9th, 2014 at 19:37
He inflicted the Tundra Twit upon America, that’s torture of an entire nation.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:42
But now at least we can laugh at it.
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 20:22
LOL
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 18:41
It was “funny” this morning on Morning Joe when Joe kept claiming that the torture did provide us information that saved lives. He kept on saying he had acquired this information but he could not tell us how he knew, but trust him on this because he has privileged knowledge he was dispensing to us and he seemed to think we should be grateful. On MSNBC there was an interview with W and Matt Lauer where Matt asked the genius if he feel that his policies violated the UN oversight, W claimed he did not need to follow them.
edmeyer_able December 9th, 2014 at 18:43
Maybe we could torture joe so he would tell us after all he seems to approve of the technique.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:01
I elect we torture him by locking him in a sound proof room and making him watch rush and bill o’liely 24/7 until he is willing to admit he is one of the front”men” for the stupid party and he should work on changes and make it a party that will exist beyond 2016.
Larry Schmitt December 9th, 2014 at 19:13
Better yet, make him watch his own show.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:16
That won’t bother him, he loooooves his own voice.
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 18:59
Joe is clueless. Makes all that money spewing drivel…
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:08
I like to know what the right is complaining about and Joe is about the only one I can stomach. I watch him first thing in the morning as I am getting ready so he doesn’t have my constant attention, just enough to let me know what far fetched story they are concocting at the moment.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:41
It was “funny” this morning on Morning Joe when Joe kept claiming that the torture did provide us information that saved lives. He kept on saying he had acquired this information but he could not tell us how he knew, but trust him on this because he has privileged knowledge he was dispensing to us and he seemed to think we should be grateful. On MSNBC there was an interview with W and Matt Lauer where Matt asked the genius if he feel that his policies violated the UN oversight, W claimed he did not need to follow them.
edmeyer_able December 9th, 2014 at 19:43
Maybe we could torture joe so he would tell us after all he seems to approve of the technique…./s
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 20:01
I elect we torture him by locking him in a sound proof room and making him watch rush and bill o’liely 24/7 until he is willing to admit he is one of the front”men” for the stupid party and he should work on changes and make it a party that will exist beyond 2016.
Larry Schmitt December 9th, 2014 at 20:13
Better yet, make him watch his own show.
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 20:16
That won’t bother him, he loooooves his own voice.
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 19:59
Joe is clueless. Makes all that money spewing drivel…
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 20:08
I like to know what the right is complaining about and Joe is about the only one I can stomach. I watch him first thing in the morning as I am getting ready so he doesn’t have my constant attention, just enough to let me know what far fetched story they are concocting at the moment.
William December 9th, 2014 at 18:44
So actual veterans who have been exposed to torture agree we shouldn’t do it. Chickenhawks, (Hannidy, Levine, Limbaugh ect.) think we should.
http://youtu.be/zoqmH49VBC0
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 19:02
Jessie is as straight forward as they get. I like his honesty and in your face comments especially about W being the worse president in his life (mine also)…
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 19:15
Great interview!!!!!
William December 9th, 2014 at 19:44
So actual veterans who have been exposed to torture agree we shouldn’t do it. Chickenhawks, (Hannidy, Levine, Limbaugh ect.) think we should.
http://youtu.be/zoqmH49VBC0
crc3 December 9th, 2014 at 20:02
Jessie is as straight forward as they get. I like his honesty and in your face comments especially about W being the worse president in his life (mine also)…
Suzanne McFly December 9th, 2014 at 20:15
Great interview!!!!!
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 18:52
Sorry, McGrumpy, your relentless war mongering, your being wrong about everything for the last 30 years, your cynical selection of an ignoramus for a VP running mate does not make up for any comments you’ve made regarding the republican torture program that you certainly knew about given your position in the Senate.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 19:09
He has always railed against torture, when it came out he was livid and loud. Dam, you made me defend McCain
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 19:29
I agree, but he waits for it to become public knowledge before he reacts so he can look patriotic.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 19:33
No, he has been angry and shouting for years. I have to give him props on this
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 20:20
I understand.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 20:31
Thank you KABoink
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 20:41
You are more forgiving than me I guess.
I have to learn to get over the President Cheney and Curious George administration.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 21:24
I am so angry about those years of hell, they almost destroyed the country. Now the racist teabaggs are doing it all because of a Black Family in the WH.
whatthe46 December 10th, 2014 at 00:53
you hit the nail on the head.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:31
“I am so angry about those years of hell, they almost destroyed the country”
I have to agree… They DID almost destroy the Country. They almost ‘completely’ destroyed it… They’re STILL at it! Just look at all of the “poison pills” in their latest proposal.. some VERY nasty ones at that…. I can’t believe some Dems are voting for it!!!
When John B. looks THAT happy about it, it can only mean one thing… More suffering for the American people (The poor, elderly, and children, will suffer the most
Sorry… got off topic for a sec.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 05:51
“President Cheney and Curious George administration”
Emperor Cheney?… lol
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:10
“I have to learn to get over the President Cheney and Curious George administration”
It’s not possible to get over something, that, we are still feeling the effects of…
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:00
A broken clock is right more often than McCain…
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 19:52
Sorry, McGrumpy, your relentless war mongering, your being wrong about everything for the last 30 years, your cynical selection of an ignoramus for a VP running mate does not make up for any comments you’ve made regarding the republican torture program that you certainly knew about given your position in the Senate.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 20:09
He has always railed against torture, when it came out he was livid and loud. Dam, you made me defend McCain
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 20:29
I agree, but he waits for it to become public knowledge before he reacts so he can look patriotic.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 20:33
No, he has been angry and shouting for years. I have to give him props on this
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 21:20
I understand. He’s been right about one thing. Still I can’t heap praise just because he happens to be correct on one thing he had the power to stop with his power of office, but refused, because he’s just another republican.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 21:31
Thank you KABoink
KABoink_after_wingnut_hacker December 9th, 2014 at 21:41
You are more forgiving than me I guess.
I have to learn to get over the President Cheney and Curious George administration.
tracey marie December 9th, 2014 at 22:24
I am so angry about those years of hell, they almost destroyed the country. Now the racist teabaggs are doing it all because of a Black Family in the WH.
whatthe46 December 10th, 2014 at 01:53
you hit the nail on the head.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 07:31
“I am so angry about those years of hell, they almost destroyed the country”
I have to agree… They DID almost destroy the Country. They almost ‘completely’ destroyed it… They’re STILL at it! Just look at all of the “poison pills” in their latest proposal.. some VERY nasty ones at that…. I can’t believe some Dems are voting for it!!!
When John B. looks THAT happy about it, it can only mean one thing… More suffering for the American people (The poor, elderly, and children, will suffer the most
Sorry… got off topic for a sec.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:51
“President Cheney and Curious George administration”
Emperor Cheney?… lol
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 07:10
“I have to learn to get over the President Cheney and Curious George administration”
It’s not possible to get over something, that, we are still feeling the effects of…
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 07:00
A broken clock is right more often than McCain…
edmeyer_able December 9th, 2014 at 23:57
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/arrest-dick-cheney-and-george-w-bush-crimes-against-humanity/wRVSl1y4
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 00:57
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/arrest-dick-cheney-and-george-w-bush-crimes-against-humanity/wRVSl1y4
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 00:01
I understand the concern about enhanced interrogation or torture. What I don’t understand is the lack of concern about Obama’s unsupervised and unaccountable use of drones. He’s not bothering to torture people. He’s simply exterminating them by remote control. Everybody on this forum knows it, and nobody has the guts to raise the issue. Hypocrites and cowards all. Utterly disgusting.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 00:09
It is supervised, they are enemies of the US.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 00:27
Which is exactly what George Tenet said about enhanced interrogation during his interview today on CBS News. Reasonable people can disagree about whether enhanced interrogation and drone strikes are justified or even required. But anyone who condemns one while overlooking the other is displaying a complete lack of principle.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 00:29
The dif being that the drone targets are vetted and determined to be enemies, you’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Saying they are the same is simply being untruthful.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 00:46
You are seriously misinformed.
“Research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, an independent news organisation based at City University, London, has found that only 12% of victims of US drone strikes in Pakistan could be identified as militants. In a report, released by the organisation on Thursday, researchers also found that fewer than 4% of those killed have been identified as members of al Qaeda. The report said that out of the 2,379 known victims of drone strikes between June 2004 and October 2014, 704 have been identified. Only 295 of these were reported to be members of some kind of armed group.”
http://www.newsweek.com/only-12-pakistani-drone-strike-victims-identified-militants-278080
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 00:52
There will always be collateral damage when waging war, how many combatants do you think were killed in the fire bombing of Dresden in WWII, or any other city we destroyed?
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 01:37
I completely agree that collateral damage cannot be avoided. Dresden may not be the best example. It was a cultural mecca with little military significance. The fire bombing was probably done mainly for psychological effect, which isn’t quite the same thing as collateral damage.
According to the Newsweek article, drone strikes have killed nearly as many Pakistanis as the number of Americans killed on 9/11. That’s far more people than were subjected to enhanced interrogation.
You have said that the drone targets are “vetted and determined to be enemies”. Most of the people who got enhanced interrogation would undoubtedly fit that description. So if those same people (the ones who were interrogated) had been returned to the battlefield, you would have no qualms about killing them as long as they had been “vetted”?
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 06:26
“So if those same people (the ones who were interrogated) had been
returned to the battlefield, you would have no qualms about killing them
as long as they had been “vetted”?
If they return to the battle field, to fight against us… Then yes, they should be killed.
We are at war with these people
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 09:27
I don’t disagree. I am simply arguing for logical consistency. I can’t understand how someone can be completely opposed to enhanced interrogation of a group of people, yet have no qualms about killing those same people in a different setting.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 09:36
So I take it you’re happy with out Service Men and Women being subjected to the same level of interrogation as we committed?
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 10:23
I am troubled by the enhanced interrogation techniques. I am also troubled by the drone strikes. I don’t understand how someone can be troubled by enhanced interrogation and NOT be troubled by drone strikes. It seems to me that in BOTH areas were are shaky moral ground.
About 7 years ago, my daughter developed a friendship with a Pakistani exchange student who attended her high school for a year. He was well-educated and seemed like a nice kid. I know the drone strikes are not targeting people like him. But I can’t help wondering how it would feel to be living in Pakistan with the knowledge that a foreign power is “taking out” thousands of people that THEY deem to be enemy combatants.
I am NOT saying that our drone strikes are unjustified. Perhaps they are the least-bad option. What bugs me is that nobody in this so-called liberal forum seems to be troubled by them. If I’m sitting around a campfire with my conservative buddies, they all think drone strikes are fine. Nobody is bothered in the least. Hanging out in this forum, I get exactly the same impression. Substitute Bush for Obama, and suddenly this forum would light up with cries of “war crimes”. People are putting politics ahead of principle.
Am I the only person contributing to this forum that is troubled by drone strikes? Why are they not being discussed here? Why all the outrage over enhanced interrogation, and yet no outrage over drone strikes?
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 10:27
I believe you’re wrong about nobody being troubled by them in this forum, discussing them in THIS forum is not appropriate as THIS forum is about the torture and the people responsible for it.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 10:43
By “forum” I meant Liberaland.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:17
He doesn’t want to talk about torture or what McCain said.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 05:41
“I am troubled by the enhanced interrogation techniques”
You mean torture… right?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:16
It is because of the difference in setting. You seem to be avoiding the setting at hand – the treatment of prisoners and John McCain’s comments about it.
Got anything?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:15
A large number of them were not captured on the “battlefield.”
We went into Afghanistan, a dreadfully poor country, offering bounties for members of al Qaeda. Many Afghans took advantage of the chance to eliminate a personal enemy or business rival by telling us they were with al Qaeda or the Taliban. On other occasions, we’d raid a village and pick up men who were there, but we had no evidence they had done anything.
Read THE INTERROGATORS Task Force 500 and America’s Secret War Against Al Qaeda, by Chris Mackey and Greg Miller. Mackey ran an interrogation unit in Afghanistan in 2002.
Mackey describes how once a prisoner was in the system, it was hard to turn them loose, even though they knew the person was not a terrorist. They didn’t want to make mistakes, so what would happen was they’d punt and send the detainee to Guantanamo to let them sort it out there. But at Guantanamo, the reasoning was the prisoner would not have been sent to them unless they were bad guys, and again, they didn’t want to make a mistake and turn someone loose, only to find out later they’d freed a bad guy.
Here is an expert on counterinsurgency. General Petraeus made his book required reading by his officers:
“Demoralization of the enemy’s forces is an important task. The most effective way to achieve it is by employing a policy of leniency toward prisoners. They must be well treated and offered the choice of joining the movement or being set free.”
– David Galula, “Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice”
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 05:04
Thank you for the information…. (truth)
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 07:06
Many of the”detainees were not vetted and according to the report the cia had no idea who they were. The current program has passed the smell test by the senate intell committee.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:02
This has nothing to do with McCain and the torture report.
Any thoughts on that, the topic of this thread?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:00
Can’t you guys see what he’s leading you into?
The subject is treatment of prisoners and what John McCain had to say about it.
Mr. Snyder is leading you guys by the nose away from the topic because he doesn’t want to discuss it.
So the thing to do is insist he stay on topic and refuse to get off it, in my opinion.
Do what you want, but that’s the way I see it.
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 06:22
These…. people often travel with women and children, to use as shields… Very unfortunate they will become “collateral damage”
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 20:58
It is not lack of principle.
The two are not related because the two occur in vastly different circumstances with vastly different laws that apply.
To give an obvious example, It is justified to shoot an enemy on the battlefield with a bullet or missile, but it is not justified to shoot a prisoner under your control.
The subject here is treatment of prisoners.
Whaya got?
Jerry Simon December 10th, 2014 at 12:52
A Few Points! The BAD Guys Know They Have A Big Target On Their Ruthless Heads & By Now They Know As Much About Drones As We Do! Yet They Are Inviting & Allowing Innocent people (if they are) Into Their or Too Close To Their HIDEOUTS ! & These Same Innocent people (if they are) Know Their Friends Are Terrorists With A Target On Their Heads But Still Hang With The Terrorists! It Is Their CHOICES To Choose To Be In HARMS WAY! Would You Rather Send Our Troops Or Manned Aircraft There To Do The Same Job The Drones Do, With The Risk Of Being Killed, Maimed Or Beheaded Or Tortured??
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 13:11
“Would You Rather Send Our Troops Or Manned Aircraft There To Do The Same Job The Drones Do, With The Risk Of Being Killed, Maimed Or Beheaded Or Tortured??”
That’s an open question. Killing by remote control using drones changes the nature of warfare by making it virtually risk-free for the technologically superior side. We can now kill people from a great distance without having any skin in the game. In the past, when a president ordered an attack, he had to weigh the human costs. Drones eliminate the human cost for the US. Is that a good thing? Wouldn’t that tend to make warfare more frequent?
During the Vietnam era, everybody knew somebody who was drafted and whose life was at risk. Then we moved to an all-volunteer military. Today only 1% of Americans serve in the military, but those are real Americans who still have to risk their lives, so a president still has to worry about the human cost. Eliminating that human cost might seem like a good thing, but what will be the long-term consequences?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 20:55
This has nothing to do with the torture report.
Any thoughts on it?
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 12:57
Your boy dubya started the drone strikes.
The Bush administration began using drone strikes in 2004 and had launched a total of 49 by the time Mr. Bush left office in early 2009, according to the New America Foundation, a nonprofit think tank in Washington. Of those strikes, 48 were in Pakistan and one was in Yemen, and they killed as many as 356 militants.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/24/bush-policies-still-alive-in-obama-white-house/#ixzz3LWEViOKG
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 13:14
Well I voted for Obama in 2008, and he increased the use of drones. So this doesn’t seem like a Republican or Democrat issue.
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 13:41
So maybe it is a War on Terror issue instead?
Let’s remember that Drones are seen by many in the military as delivering precision strikes without the need for more intrusive military action.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 20:54
It’s a prisoner interrogation issue and Mr. Snyder is trying to hijack in order to not discuss it.
This, to me, is a glaring indicator that the thing to do is engage Mr. Snyder on interrogation while declining his attempt to change the subject.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 20:52
This isn’t about drones.
This is about an official policy that sanctioned abuse and torture of prisoners.
Please don’t try to distract us.
I’d enjoy reading what you have to say about this report on the policy and what McCain had to say about it.
Any thoughts?
Roctuna December 11th, 2014 at 08:05
I’ve raised the issue of drone-striking and summary execution of American citizens w/o due process several times in this forum. The fact that Obama has chosen these techniques speaks to his own weaknesses and the dominance of paranoia in the industrial security complex.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 01:01
I understand the concern about enhanced interrogation or torture. What I don’t understand is the lack of concern about Obama’s unsupervised and unaccountable use of drones. He’s not bothering to torture people. He’s simply exterminating them by remote control. Everybody on this forum knows it, and nobody has the guts to raise the issue. Hypocrites and cowards all. Utterly disgusting.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 01:09
It is supervised, they are enemies of the US.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 01:27
Which is exactly what George Tenet said about enhanced interrogation during his interview today on CBS News. Reasonable people can disagree about whether enhanced interrogation and drone strikes are justified or even required. But anyone who condemns one while overlooking the other is displaying a complete lack of principle.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 01:29
The dif being that the drone targets are vetted and determined to be enemies, you’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Saying they are the same is simply being untruthful.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 01:46
You are seriously misinformed.
“Research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, an independent news organisation based at City University, London, has found that only 12% of victims of US drone strikes in Pakistan could be identified as militants. In a report, released by the organisation on Thursday, researchers also found that fewer than 4% of those killed have been identified as members of al Qaeda. The report said that out of the 2,379 known victims of drone strikes between June 2004 and October 2014, 704 have been identified. Only 295 of these were reported to be members of some kind of armed group.”
http://www.newsweek.com/only-12-pakistani-drone-strike-victims-identified-militants-278080
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 01:52
There will always be collateral damage when waging war, how many combatants do you think were killed in the fire bombing of Dresden in WWII, or any other city we destroyed?
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 02:37
I completely agree that collateral damage cannot be avoided. Dresden may not be the best example. It was a cultural mecca with little military significance. The fire bombing was probably done mainly for psychological effect, which isn’t quite the same thing as collateral damage.
According to the Newsweek article, drone strikes have killed nearly as many Pakistanis as the number of Americans killed on 9/11. That’s far more people than were subjected to enhanced interrogation.
You have said that the drone targets are “vetted and determined to be enemies”. Most of the people who got enhanced interrogation would undoubtedly fit that description. So if those same people (the ones who were interrogated) had been returned to the battlefield, you would have no qualms about killing them as long as they had been “vetted”?
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 07:26
“So if those same people (the ones who were interrogated) had been
returned to the battlefield, you would have no qualms about killing them
as long as they had been “vetted”?
If they return to the battle field, to fight against us… Then yes, they should be killed.
We are at war with these people
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 10:27
I don’t disagree. I am simply arguing for logical consistency. I can’t understand how someone can be completely opposed to enhanced interrogation of a group of people, yet have no qualms about killing those same people in a different setting.
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 10:36
So I take it you’re happy with out Service Men and Women being subjected to the same level of interrogation as we committed?
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 11:23
I am troubled by the enhanced interrogation techniques. I am also troubled by the drone strikes. I don’t understand how someone can be troubled by enhanced interrogation and NOT be troubled by drone strikes. It seems to me that in BOTH areas were are shaky moral ground.
About 7 years ago, my daughter developed a friendship with a Pakistani exchange student who attended her high school for a year. He was well-educated and seemed like a nice kid. I know the drone strikes are not targeting people like him. But I can’t help wondering how it would feel to be living in Pakistan with the knowledge that a foreign power is “taking out” thousands of people that THEY deem to be enemy combatants.
I am NOT saying that our drone strikes are unjustified. Perhaps they are the least-bad option. What bugs me is that nobody in this so-called liberal forum seems to be troubled by them. If I’m sitting around a campfire with my conservative buddies, they all think drone strikes are fine. Nobody is bothered in the least. Hanging out in this forum, I get exactly the same impression. Substitute Bush for Obama, and suddenly this forum would light up with cries of “war crimes”. People are putting politics ahead of principle.
Am I the only person contributing to this forum that is troubled by drone strikes? Why are they not being discussed here? Why all the outrage over enhanced interrogation, and yet no outrage over drone strikes?
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 11:27
I believe you’re wrong about nobody being troubled by them in this forum, discussing them in THIS forum is not appropriate as THIS forum is about the torture and the people responsible for it.
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 11:43
By “forum” I meant Liberaland.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 22:17
He doesn’t want to talk about torture or what McCain said.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:41
“I am troubled by the enhanced interrogation techniques”
You mean torture… right?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 22:16
It is because of the difference in setting. You seem to be avoiding the setting at hand – the treatment of prisoners and John McCain’s comments about it.
Got anything?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 22:15
A large number of them were not captured on the “battlefield.”
We went into Afghanistan, a dreadfully poor country, offering bounties for members of al Qaeda. Many Afghans took advantage of the chance to eliminate a personal enemy or business rival by telling us they were with al Qaeda or the Taliban. On other occasions, we’d raid a village and pick up men who were there, but we had no evidence they had done anything.
Read THE INTERROGATORS Task Force 500 and America’s Secret War Against Al Qaeda, by Chris Mackey and Greg Miller. Mackey ran an interrogation unit in Afghanistan in 2002.
Mackey describes how once a prisoner was in the system, it was hard to turn them loose, even though they knew the person was not a terrorist. They didn’t want to make mistakes, so what would happen was they’d punt and send the detainee to Guantanamo to let them sort it out there. But at Guantanamo, the reasoning was the prisoner would not have been sent to them unless they were bad guys, and again, they didn’t want to make a mistake and turn someone loose, only to find out later they’d freed a bad guy.
Here is an expert on counterinsurgency. General Petraeus made his book required reading by his officers:
“Demoralization of the enemy’s forces is an important task. The most effective way to achieve it is by employing a policy of leniency toward prisoners. They must be well treated and offered the choice of joining the movement or being set free.”
– David Galula, “Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice”
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:04
Thank you for the information…. (truth)
edmeyer_able December 10th, 2014 at 08:06
Many of the “detainees” were not vetted and according to the report the cia had no idea who they were. The current program has passed the smell test by the senate intell committee. There will always be detractors of any program where killing people is the end result, as demonstrated by those who say the use of atomic weapons was not warranted to end WWII.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 22:02
This has nothing to do with McCain and the torture report.
Any thoughts on that, the topic of this thread?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 22:00
Can’t you guys see what he’s leading you into?
The subject is treatment of prisoners and what John McCain had to say about it.
Mr. Snyder is leading you guys by the nose away from the topic because he doesn’t want to discuss it.
So the thing to do is insist he stay on topic and refuse to get off it, in my opinion.
Do what you want, but that’s the way I see it.
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 07:22
These…. people often travel with women and children, to use as shields… Very unfortunate they will become “collateral damage”
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:58
It is not lack of principle.
The two are not related because the two occur in vastly different circumstances with vastly different laws that apply.
To give an obvious example, It is justified to shoot an enemy on the battlefield with a bullet or missile, but it is not justified to shoot a prisoner under your control.
The subject here is treatment of prisoners.
Whaya got?
Jerry Simon December 10th, 2014 at 13:52
A Few Points! The BAD Guys Know They Have A Big Target On Their Ruthless Heads & By Now They Know As Much About Drones As We Do! Yet They Are Inviting & Allowing Innocent people (if they are) Into Their or Too Close To Their HIDEOUTS ! & These Same Innocent people (if they are) Know Their Friends Are Terrorists With A Target On Their Heads But Still Hang With The Terrorists! It Is Their CHOICES To Choose To Be In HARMS WAY! Would You Rather Send Our Troops Or Manned Aircraft There To Do The Same Job The Drones Do, With The Risk Of Being Killed, Maimed Or Beheaded Or Tortured??
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 14:11
“Would You Rather Send Our Troops Or Manned Aircraft There To Do The Same Job The Drones Do, With The Risk Of Being Killed, Maimed Or Beheaded Or Tortured??”
That’s an open question. Killing by remote control using drones changes the nature of warfare by making it virtually risk-free for the technologically superior side. We can now kill people from a great distance without having any skin in the game. In the past, when a president ordered an attack, he had to weigh the human costs. Drones eliminate the human cost for the US. Is that a good thing? Wouldn’t that tend to make warfare more frequent?
During the Vietnam era, everybody knew somebody who was drafted and whose life was at risk. Then we moved to an all-volunteer military. Today only 1% of Americans serve in the military, but those are real Americans who still have to risk their lives, so a president still has to worry about the human cost. Eliminating that human cost might seem like a good thing, but what will be the long-term consequences?
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:55
This has nothing to do with the torture report.
Any thoughts on it?
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 13:57
Your boy dubya started the drone strikes.
The Bush administration began using drone strikes in 2004 and had launched a total of 49 by the time Mr. Bush left office in early 2009, according to the New America Foundation, a nonprofit think tank in Washington. Of those strikes, 48 were in Pakistan and one was in Yemen, and they killed as many as 356 militants.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/24/bush-policies-still-alive-in-obama-white-house/#ixzz3LWEViOKG
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
Robert M. Snyder December 10th, 2014 at 14:14
Well I voted for Obama in 2008, and he increased the use of drones. So this doesn’t seem like a Republican or Democrat issue.
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 14:41
So maybe it is a War on Terror issue instead?
Let’s remember that Drones are seen by many in the military as delivering precision strikes without the need for more intrusive military action.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:54
It’s a prisoner interrogation issue and Mr. Snyder is trying to hijack in order to not discuss it.
This, to me, is a glaring indicator that the thing to do is engage Mr. Snyder on interrogation while declining his attempt to change the subject.
burqa December 10th, 2014 at 21:52
This isn’t about drones.
This is about an official policy that sanctioned abuse and torture of prisoners.
Please don’t try to distract us.
I’d enjoy reading what you have to say about this report on the policy and what McCain had to say about it.
Any thoughts?
Roctuna December 11th, 2014 at 09:05
I’ve raised the issue of drone-striking and summary execution of American citizens w/o due process several times in this forum. The fact that Obama has chosen these techniques speaks to his own weaknesses and the dominance of paranoia in the industrial security complex.
rg9rts December 10th, 2014 at 01:47
That was the real McCain…if he had been that man instead of that bagger sham he might have been in the oval office..
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 05:47
“That was the real McCain”
I agree with that…. the only problem is he would show up at the Oval Office, with the real….. Sarah Palin
rg9rts December 10th, 2014 at 02:47
That was the real McCain…if he had been that man instead of that bagger sham he might have been in the oval office..
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 06:47
“That was the real McCain”
I agree with that…. the only problem is he would show up at the Oval Office, with the real….. Sarah Palin
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 06:08
I know… I’m sick for watching Fox last night. (But I had to find out what the ‘right’ is up to.
I could not believe the amount of lies coming out of fox, about the “success” of torture… They kept talking about how “thousands of lives were saved, from torture” and how “torture led up to catching and killing Osama” And then they went on at great length about how the “Report” put out by
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 12:44
Keep in mind raincheck, Fox is GOP TV.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 05:06
Yes… it sure is
Tim Coolio December 13th, 2014 at 21:47
If fox was around in WW2 they would be rooting for America to fail, and why? because the president wasn’t a republican.
anothertoothpick December 14th, 2014 at 07:33
In 1970 under Nixon there was a plan called “A Plan for Putting the GOP on TV News”
The The Nixon Administration could subvert television news and get their Republican-friendly message out across America.
The plan was pushed by Roger Ailes.
Fox News is very dangerous.
Tim Coolio December 14th, 2014 at 07:38
But they can be beat – like in 08 and 12,
when dems get out and vote!
fox doesn’t have our votes!
anothertoothpick December 14th, 2014 at 07:52
I hope you’re right Tim.
But we see all the districts gerrymandered to their advantage, we see all these “think tanks” and all the money going into repub coffers.
The rebups control 2/3 of all the state legistlatures and governors offices.
They are staking the courts.
They have a long term plan (that plan included GOP TV) on establishing permanant power. And they are well on their way.
Tim Coolio December 14th, 2014 at 08:29
Not worried, voters will revolt when this GOP race to the bottom Pushes them up against a wall, at some point another FDR will step up and reverse the rightwing “every man for himself”utopia and put people ahead of profits again.
Tim Coolio December 13th, 2014 at 21:46
Fox = we deceive, you believe.
raincheck December 10th, 2014 at 07:08
I know… I’m sick for watching Fox last night. (But I had to find out what the ‘right’ is up to)
I could not believe the amount of lies coming out of fox, (Kelly file) about the “success” of torture… They kept talking about how “thousands of lives were saved, from torture” and how “torture led up to catching and killing Osama” And then they went on at great length about how the “Report” put out by Diane F. was “completely inaccurate.
I only saw it mentioned, on “Kelly File” I briefly watched some of the others… Bill O’, Shaun H., and saw NO mention of the report… Bill O’ was busy with, making Ferguson protesters into demons etc. etc. And Saun was just ‘blathering’ about some kind of B.S.
No matter what the truth is…. you WON’T find it at fox!!
anothertoothpick December 10th, 2014 at 13:44
Keep in mind raincheck, Fox is GOP TV.
raincheck December 11th, 2014 at 06:06
Yes… it sure is
Tim Coolio December 13th, 2014 at 22:47
If fox was around in WW2 they would be rooting for America to fail, and why? because the president wasn’t a republican.
anothertoothpick December 14th, 2014 at 08:33
In 1970 under Nixon there was a plan called “A Plan for Putting the GOP on TV News”
The The Nixon Administration could subvert television news and get their Republican-friendly message out across America.
The plan was pushed by Roger Ailes.
Fox News is very dangerous.
Tim Coolio December 14th, 2014 at 08:38
But they can be beat – like in 08 and 12,
when dems get out and vote!
fox doesn’t have our votes!
anothertoothpick December 14th, 2014 at 08:52
I hope you’re right Tim.
But we see all the districts gerrymandered to their advantage, we see all these “think tanks” and all the money going into repub coffers.
The rebups control 2/3 of all the state legistlatures and governors offices.
They are stacking the courts.
They have a long term plan (that plan included GOP TV) on establishing permanant power. And they are well on their way.
Tim Coolio December 14th, 2014 at 09:29
Not worried, voters will revolt when this GOP race to the bottom Pushes them up against a wall, at some point another FDR will step up and reverse the rightwing “every man for himself”utopia and put people ahead of profits again.
Tim Coolio December 13th, 2014 at 22:46
Fox = we deceive, you believe.