Israel Must Exist
The original poster is an acquaintance of mine. A Muslim woman from the Chicagoland area, and a talented artist whose work I admire. Normally, I would not engage in a dialogue on this topic with a friend because it is just too fraught with landmines. But after reading all the comments about “dirty Zionist Jews”, I felt compelled to say a few words in defense of Israel. I believe I was the only Jew on the thread. In my comments, I tried to be very precise in my use of words, taking extra precaution not to disparage anyone or any faith. But the vitriol quickly turned from Zionists and Jews generally, to me personally. I was called a “dog”, a “Nazi”, a “killer” “inhuman” and a “mongrel”. Some posters expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler and regret that he didn’t finish the job. One explained that Jews were responsible for the 9/11 terrorists attacks, and that Hamas is run by the CIA. I asked repeatedly if any of the hundreds of people on the thread were willing to reject the Hamas charter calling for the destruction of Israel. Not one came forward.
I am not an observant Jew. I practice no religion. I am an atheist. I am neither an expert on Judaism and Jewish history, nor well-versed in Islam, Islamic culture or the plight of the Palestinian people. I have many Jewish friends, many Christian friends and a lesser number of Muslim friends. I have defended Jews against radical anti-Semites and have often stood up for Muslims against the onslaught of bigotry so frequently exhibited right here in America. But I feel I must take a stand. And I mean no offense and harbor no ill-will towards those of different faiths or no faith.
Israel must exist. As a nation and a homeland for the Jewish people. The history of the Jewish people exists is entirely in Israel. Every Jewish holy site is in Israel. The holiest of them all (the Western Wall at the Temple Mount) is in Jerusalem – the holiest city in Judaism – dating back nearly 3,000 years. The one city in the world Jews are commanded to visit is Jerusalem, in Israel.
The history of Islam is spread throughout the world. The two holiest sites in Islam (Mecca and Medina) are in Saudi Arabia. The third (the Al-Aqsa Mosque) is in Jerusalem, dating back roughly 800 years – or 2,200 years after the Jewish Temple. The fourth and fifth holiest sites in Islam (the Imam Ali Mosque and the Imam Husayn Shrine) are in Iraq. The one city in the world Muslims are commanded to visit is Mecca, in Saudi Arabia. Not in Israel. Not in Palestine.
Jews have never conducted “Crusades”, “Holy Wars”, or imperialistic incursions designed to build an empire and produce mass conversions to Judaism. They have always wanted just a homeland in Israel, as proscribed in the Bible. Conversely, Islamic crusades have been waged from the time of Mohammed, through the rise of the Arab caliphates; the Byzantine-era conquests of Persia and Mesopotamia and North Africa; the incursions into India and the Ottoman Empire in South Asia, as well as into Northern, Southern and Western Europe; and right up to the present day’s Jihads against all those who do not believe in Allah, or who are perceived be enemies of Islam. Islamic imperialism is one of the main reasons there are so many more Muslims today than Jews. Again, this is not to disparage Islam. It is just a statement of fact.
Today, there are roughly only 14 million Jews left in the world. Jews make up .2% of the world’s population. 44% (about 6 million) of the world’s Jews live in Israel, where Jews make up 75% of the population. There is no other country on earth where Jews make up the majority of the population. There is only one other country in the world (the United States) where there are more than 1 million Jews. Jews can be found in approximately 100 countries in the world, but roughly half of these countries are home to fewer than 1,000 Jews.
Today, there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Muslims make up 23% of the world’s population. .0008% (1.4 million) of the world’s Muslims live in Israel. Another .003% (4.2 million) live in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank and Gaza. There are more Muslims (15 million) in the small African nation of Niger than there are Jews in the entire world. There are 24 countries in the world with populations greater than 10 million that are predominantly Muslim; another 6 with a population greater than 100 million that are predominantly Muslim. There are also many predominantly Christian, Buddhist and Hindu countries in Asia, Europe and Africa with a significant Muslim population of 5 million people or more. All told, there are over 250 nations where Muslims can be found – two and a half times the number where Jews can be found. Even in the United States, Muslims outnumber Jews by nearly 3-to-1.
In short, Palestinians have options. Jews do not.
I know there are disputes. About this territory and that territory. About these borders and those borders. About who did what to whom. About 1948, 1967, 2005 and 2010. But the fact remains that Israel is, was and always will be the Jewish homeland. There is no other land they have ever called their own, or can call their own. There is no other country where there is a majority Jewish population to welcome and absorb them. There has never been a people who have been subjected to the kind of treatment Jews have faced their entire existence. Put another way, there has never been a proposed “final solution to the Muslim problem.”
No one wants to see the Palestinian people suffer any longer. No one wants to see Islam destroyed, or wiped out of existence. But the people of Israel are not going give up their land. Ever. It is all they have left.
It is time to admit the unspoken truth: that Palestinians and Israelis will never coexist peacefully. There will never be a two-state solution. The differences between the Palestinians and the Israelis are too great. There has been too much pain, too much suffering and the trust is irrevocably broken. The marriage cannot be saved. The time has come to end it.
And so, my friends – my Christian friends, my Hindu friends, my Buddhist friends, my secular friends and especially my Muslim friends – I am asking you, begging you, pleading with you…please find a home for these people. A place where they won’t just survive but thrive; a place where they can live in peace; a place where they can practice their religion amidst others of similar faith. It doesn’t have to be a single country; rather, a consortium of nations, perhaps under the auspices of the UN, the EU and other international organizations; a coalition of the willing who are humane enough to take these refugees in. I may be dead-wrong but it would not surprise me at all if many Palestinians, especially the younger, less-ideologically entrenched, would welcome the opportunity to create a new life in a more hospitable place; a place that holds the promise of a safer, more peaceful and more prosperous future. Just as many Jews do not wish to live in Israel, many Palestinians may not wish to live in Palestine. But they should be welcome to return freely to the land of their ancestral history, just as Jews and Christians do. The people of Israel (Jews, Christians and Muslims) must preserve and maintain the Islamic holy sites, and they must continue to welcome people of all faiths into their land, as they have always done. But Jews also deserve to live in peace. In their homeland. And in their homes.
It may not be what you want, you may not think it’s fair and it most certainly will not be easy, but there are no better options left. It must be so.
I welcome your thoughts. Feel free to disagree with me or with each other, but please keep it civil.
Peace, Shalom and As-Salāmu `Alaykum.
Click here for reuse options!Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: Mark Hersch
Mark Hersch is a Boston-bred, DC-raised liberal now living in Chicago with his liberal wife and two liberal dogs.
Anomaly 100 July 21st, 2014 at 10:05
The second I see ‘Zionists’ in a comment, I stop reading it. It closes the discussion.
fantagor July 21st, 2014 at 17:18
I get similarly turned off by the word “antisemitism” when used reflexively against anybody who dares to criticize Israel for its bloodthirsty overreaction to a feckless attack that originated from Gaza, which is nothing but a ghettoized interment camp for Palestinians. And all this turmoil is rooted in religion. Have you seen a Palestinian and an Israeli stand near each other? If not for religious garb, you couldn’t tell them apart. It’s like watching a war between brothers who were each taught a different way to have a lively relationship with an imaginary friend. Absent religious differences, that part of the world would hold the record for consecutive years of peace.
Anomaly 100 July 21st, 2014 at 19:18
Yes I have. I don’t like Netanyahu and I don’t like Hamas. Two peas in a pod…
Anomaly 100 July 21st, 2014 at 10:05
The second I see ‘Zionists’ in a comment, I stop reading it. It closes the discussion.
fantagor July 21st, 2014 at 17:18
I get similarly turned off by the word “antisemitism” when used reflexively against anybody who dares to criticize Israel for its bloodthirsty overreaction to a feckless attack that originated from Gaza, which is nothing but a ghettoized interment camp for Palestinians. And all this turmoil is rooted in religion. Have you seen a Palestinian and an Israeli stand near each other? If not for religious garb, you couldn’t tell them apart. It’s like watching a war between brothers who were each taught a different way to have a lively relationship with an imaginary friend. Absent religious differences, that part of the world would hold the record for consecutive years of peace.
Anomaly 100 July 21st, 2014 at 19:18
Yes I have. I don’t like Netanyahu and I don’t like Hamas. Two peas in a pod…
Bianca Bradley July 21st, 2014 at 10:18
The man has more compassion then I would have. Dog, mongrel, Hitler and dirty Jew would have already had me fired up to sling insults. Yet he kept his cool and tried to be rational?
I’m amazed that somehow, when Hamas fires rockets, and Israel responds it’s Israels’ fault. I’m amazed that they have tried time and time again to do a ceasefire but yet this is still Israel’s fault. Clearly people need to stop taking the drugs, it’s messing with their cognitive function.
Bianca Bradley July 21st, 2014 at 10:18
The man has more compassion then I would have. Dog, mongrel, Hitler and dirty Jew would have already had me fired up to sling insults. Yet he kept his cool and tried to be rational?
I’m amazed that somehow, when Hamas fires rockets, and Israel responds it’s Israels’ fault. I’m amazed that they have tried time and time again to do a ceasefire but yet this is still Israel’s fault. Clearly people need to stop taking the drugs, it’s messing with their cognitive function.
Just Quoting July 21st, 2014 at 10:24
It’s odd to me that people think Gazans, for example, have been displaced so far away from their former villages in Israel. They are less than 5 miles from where they were before 1948 war, from where they insisted they lived for generations. Refugee populations have moved 800 miles in the World Wars and America, in the Trail of Tears.
Statehood for Palestinians is absolutely just but why the focus on taking rights and statehood away from the Jewish people on the basis of being displaced 0-20 miles from your home by the armistice lines between Arab armies & the Jewish state?
Why spurn the claims of Jews as “natives,” when Jerusalem has constantly had a Jewish majority or plurality for millennia, and when over half the Israeli population has been living in Middle East kingdoms for a +1000 years until 1948?
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 12:57
That was a fine hasbara piece. Makes no sense, full of half-truths.
Just Quoting July 21st, 2014 at 14:39
Actually, it was just an observation that re-occurs to me (and not one I’ve heard made by hasbara folks) and the truths are all 100%.
But thanks for the indirect compliment. Evidently the observation was difficult for you to address via other means.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 19:31
Wow. 100% truths. Haven’t seen that level of confidence in a while. “Jerusalem has constantly had a Jewish majority or plurality for millennia” “Statehood for Palestinians is absolutely just”
Drink much?
Just Quoting July 22nd, 2014 at 01:40
You praised a man as a hero who flew his biplane into an IRS building….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack
killing himself and a worker there.
Just Quoting July 21st, 2014 at 14:42
Also, apparently you’ve said that the guy who flew a plane into an IRS building was a hero.
http://www.pffugeecamp.com/diary/632/flying-the-talk-terrorist-attack-on-austin-irs-building
So in other words, you’re an insane crank and your input on Israel &the Palestinians is going to involve bigotry.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 19:27
Ah, yes. Insane. Or maybe with a wider view than your little shoehorn factory.
Margie Bateman Osgood July 21st, 2014 at 10:30
Well said, Alan, well said
Margie Bateman Osgood July 21st, 2014 at 10:30
Well said, Alan, well said
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 10:46
Agreed. Israel has shown far more patience than any country could be expected to. Hamas rains missiles down on Israel seven days a week and the world expects Israel to sit there and take the punishment and not defend herself.
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 12:40
Nobody expects Israel to just ignore it… but you’re offering a false dichotomy. Israel could send in military to do precision strikes, killing only fighters, rather than, amongst others, Palestinian children (estimates put it at 49 so far, with total civilian casualties representing 75% of the greater than 260 Palestinians killed so far).
What the world expects Israel to do is respond without breaking international law, causing a massive humanitarian crisis, and using missiles fired by Hamas (et al) that mostly get blocked by Iron Dome to justify a massive campaign with a massive arsenal.
Mind you, Hamas is not even remotely innocent in this situation. I blame them as much as I blame the Israeli government. But there’s plenty of blame to go around.
Guest July 21st, 2014 at 13:15
So you wouldn’t be opposed to using high explosive artillary rounds, fired from warplanes and ships, against the American population in general, if, oh say, the (fill in the blank) gets out of control?
Luhgnut July 21st, 2014 at 13:16
So you wouldn’t be opposed to using high explosive artillery rounds, fired from warplanes and ships, against the American population in general, if, oh say, the (fill in the blank) gets out of control?
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 22:04
… what? How on earth do you get from what I said to this?
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 10:46
Agreed. Israel has shown far more patience than any country could be expected to. Hamas rains missiles down on Israel seven days a week and the world expects Israel to sit there and take the punishment and not defend herself.
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 12:40
Nobody expects Israel to just ignore it… but you’re offering a false dichotomy. Israel could send in military to do precision strikes, killing only fighters, rather than, amongst others, Palestinian children (estimates put it at 49 so far, with total civilian casualties representing 75% of the greater than 260 Palestinians killed so far).
What the world expects Israel to do is respond without breaking international law, causing a massive humanitarian crisis, and using missiles fired by Hamas (et al) that mostly get blocked by Iron Dome to justify a massive campaign with a massive arsenal.
Mind you, Hamas is not even remotely innocent in this situation. I blame them as much as I blame the Israeli government. But there’s plenty of blame to go around.
Luhgnut July 21st, 2014 at 13:16
So you wouldn’t be opposed to using high explosive artillery rounds, fired from warplanes and ships, against the American population in general, if, oh say, the (fill in the blank) gets out of control?
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 22:04
… what? How on earth do you get from what I said to this?
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 12:11
May I ask you something?
You assert that the Jews deserve a homeland. Why? Should the Baha’i be given a homeland? How about the Scientologists? Why should a religion be granted a “homeland”?
Now, I’m not suggesting that Jews do not belong in the greater region of Palestine. I’m not suggesting they do not belong in Jerusalem. The part I’m challenging is the part where it’s suggested that their nation should be a “Jewish nation”. Why should any religion have its own nation? Note that this is different from a nation having a majority of one religion. America has a vast majority of Christians, and it informs their politics strongly. But Christians don’t automatically get a right to go there.
Doesn’t it make more sense to work towards achieving a situation in which Jews can coexist with others without fear of attacks from those others? A situation in which mutual respect is afforded, rather than trying to gather Jews up into one nation that is run, in essence, theocratically?
I propose a different solution. A merging of Israel with the rest of Palestine, to form a single nation. Remove the concept of a “Jewish state”, and instead establish a secular state with protections for all religions. Estimates place the region as consisting of 50.7% Jews (of which about 20% are secular – Jewish ethnicity, not religion), 40.1% Muslims, and 9.2% other. This seems a perfect balance to establish a secular state with protections in place to ensure that neither Muslims nor Jews can dominate the other. It seems, to me, to be the only plausible way to deal with the situation, as it nullifies the efforts by many to “destroy” Israel (no reason why “Israel” couldn’t be kept as the name, or perhaps slightly modified to emphasise that it’s a new arrangement), restores Palestinian refugees (at least, those who remain in the territories), and eliminates the problems with settlements, while also addressing the problem of ownership of the “best” land. Meanwhile, Jews have full access to their holy sites, while Muslims have full access to theirs.
It seems to me that “there are a lot more Muslims” isn’t a reason to justify ignoring the plight of Palestinians, or to suggest that Muslims should just give up access to lands that many of them were born on and forced to flee from. But at the same time, the majority of Israelis were also born on that land. So a “One State Solution” is the only solution I can see.
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 12:11
May I ask you something?
You assert that the Jews deserve a homeland. Why? Should the Baha’i be given a homeland? How about the Scientologists? Why should a religion be granted a “homeland”?
Now, I’m not suggesting that Jews do not belong in the greater region of Palestine. I’m not suggesting they do not belong in Jerusalem. The part I’m challenging is the part where it’s suggested that their nation should be a “Jewish nation”. Why should any religion have its own nation? Note that this is different from a nation having a majority of one religion. America has a vast majority of Christians, and it informs their politics strongly. But Christians don’t automatically get a right to go there.
Doesn’t it make more sense to work towards achieving a situation in which Jews can coexist with others without fear of attacks from those others? A situation in which mutual respect is afforded, rather than trying to gather Jews up into one nation that is run, in essence, theocratically?
I propose a different solution. A merging of Israel with the rest of Palestine, to form a single nation. Remove the concept of a “Jewish state”, and instead establish a secular state with protections for all religions. Estimates place the region as consisting of 50.7% Jews (of which about 20% are secular – Jewish ethnicity, not religion), 40.1% Muslims, and 9.2% other. This seems a perfect balance to establish a secular state with protections in place to ensure that neither Muslims nor Jews can dominate the other. It seems, to me, to be the only plausible way to deal with the situation, as it nullifies the efforts by many to “destroy” Israel (no reason why “Israel” couldn’t be kept as the name, or perhaps slightly modified to emphasise that it’s a new arrangement), restores Palestinian refugees (at least, those who remain in the territories), and eliminates the problems with settlements, while also addressing the problem of ownership of the “best” land. Meanwhile, Jews have full access to their holy sites, while Muslims have full access to theirs.
It seems to me that “there are a lot more Muslims” isn’t a reason to justify ignoring the plight of Palestinians, or to suggest that Muslims should just give up access to lands that many of them were born on and forced to flee from. But at the same time, the majority of Israelis were also born on that land. So a “One State Solution” is the only solution I can see.
Just Quoting July 21st, 2014 at 14:37
Poll shows 55% of Palestinians think goal in next 5 years should be taking Israel and kicking out the Jews.
Only 11% want equal rights in one-state for next 5 years (a provisional goal reflecting what you suggest), so YOU DON’T CARE what Palestinians want
Instead, you want to put Jews & Arabs in a situation with the majority of Palestinians are pre-committed to violence for purpose of a totally different goal than equal rights or sharing land with Jews.
Ultimately, you’re pro-war. Just not this one.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 19:28
Israel’s LEADERS seem to want war forever. It figures, since that’s how they stay in power.
Glen July 21st, 2014 at 22:03
I assume you’re referring to the poll conducted by The Washington Institute? Here’s the thing about polls – they tend to reflect the current circumstances. Gazans are being kept in what amounts to a cage by Israel, so it shouldn’t surprise you that the idea of sharing their lands with Israel doesn’t appeal to them right now. Those in the West Bank are a little more willing, unsurprisingly, but given the constant encroachment on their lands, further driving out of Palestinians from pieces of land in order to build settlements, it shouldn’t surprise anybody that they, too, aren’t so fond of Israel right now.
That being said, your “kicking out the Jews” part is just plain false. The goal they supported was reclamation of all of Palestinian lands, not the kicking out of Jews.
Furthermore, when asked about violence, the majority were against the use of violent, wanting Hamas to enter a permanent cease-fire with Israel and supporting a unity government under Abbas that renounces the use of violence.
Ultimately, it’s not that I’m pro-war, it’s that you believe that people are incapable of changing their opinion, compromising, or peacefully accepting a solution that grants them the essential rights and freedoms they most desire. But thanks, you’ve clearly thought through the whole point Mark is making at the start of his article, about extreme rhetoric and accusations rather than informed debate.
Note, by the way, that the exact wording of poll questions can skew results. Here in Australia, we had a referendum on the possibility of separating from Britain and becoming a republic, back around the turn of the millennium. The PM at the time was against it, and chose the wording of the referendum, which basically meant that, rather than voting for the idea of a republic, we were voting for a specific model that was unpopular with the people of Australia, and thus the referendum failed – not for lack of support for a republic, but because of wording. Without knowing the wording of the poll, we cannot know how trustworthy the result is.
Just Quoting July 22nd, 2014 at 01:34
No, “reclaiming” specifically means Jews can’t live there when it is chosen as opposed to the “equal rights” option given. Majority tactically supports a cease fire (which is not related to their 5 year agendas) but choice of “reclaiming” vs equal rights entails violence when Jews decide they’re not submitting.
Yes, I believe that when a poll says that 90% of the people reject the “equal rights” & binational democracy option you support and NO POLL HAS EVER recorded any support for that which isn’t so minuscule, people will not radically change their minds within years, so that they miraculously want the utopia you (say you) want.
Glen July 22nd, 2014 at 10:49
You do realise that they always ask it in the form of “which of these do you prefer”, right? Compromise options usually don’t get much support when you ask people which they prefer.
There’s a scene in The West Wing where Joey Lucas makes a point about polls – basically, her point is that polls only tell you what you ask them. “Which do you prefer out of these three” shows that people are polarised, preferring either giving up half of the region to Israel or completely wiping Israel out. On the other hand, asking them whether they support each of the options might result in a different set of numbers.
If you were to ask the typical American voter whether they would prefer Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden as the Democratic candidate for 2016, you’d get some percentage choosing Hillary, some choosing Biden, some saying “neither”, and some unsure. In such a poll, you might get 40% supporting Clinton and 20% supporting Biden, with 30% saying neither and 10% being unsure. However, if you were to ask them which candidate they would consider voting for for president between Hillary, Biden, and an unnamed Republican, you might find that Hillary would get 35%, Biden might get 50%, and the unnamed Republican might get 40%. And yes, that adds up to more than 100%, because it didn’t pit them against each other.
It’s entirely possible that only 10% of Palestinians would prefer a one state solution over a two state solution or the destruction of Israel, but that 90% of Palestinians would support a one state solution.
In short, you say that the poll says 90% reject the one state solution… but it doesn’t ask them which ones they’d reject, only which ones they preferred.
Just Quoting July 22nd, 2014 at 12:02
They didn’t say “prefer”–they asked which of the options is “your view” on what should be the “goal.”
You’re trying to cavil by noting 90% say they “don’t prefer” equal rights for Jews in one state. You shouldnt really try to cavil in a situation re:an ethnic conflict. Lives and violence are at stake in a level MUCH MUCH greater than what’s happening now. You’re writing a lot. That should be a sign. Can’t you write directly and succinctly in defense of your argument?
Glen July 23rd, 2014 at 01:04
You’re arguing the finer details, when the overall concept is exactly the same. They don’t offer broader “goals” that permit multiple results, like “peace in greater Palestine”. They have to choose one option out of four (the fourth being “not sure”). This doesn’t allow them to express support for multiple “goals”, and thus the poll cannot possibly capture support for multiple “goals”.
I write a lot because I like to be complete and to construct an extensive argument. You write very little because you think you’re being succinct, but you’re actually being offensively dismissive, failing to address most of what I say so that you can just parrot your belief as though it is fact.
I could write my argument in two sentences. But that wouldn’t be convincing, nor would it capture all of my argument – it would give no more than an overview. Which is kind of the same as the problem with that poll – it doesn’t capture the entire viewpoint of the people. Basically, it offers a false trichotomy.
Just Quoting July 23rd, 2014 at 01:36
No, you’re bringing up details (in fact, reporting incorrect ones) that aren’t pertinent. These are 5 year goals. It’s not what is “your ideal”; it’s what do actions in general toward a certain end should be done in next 5 years.
If you wanted to try a complicated (and dubious) argument that these 5 year goal might reflect, with its actions, different long term goal AFTER 5 years, that would at least be more logical. Instead your caviling, focusing on details, then complaining that someone else is picking up on details. It feels weak, so you inflate it with verbiage.
You haven’t addressed the fact that you’re betting on a 10% number of people who have binationalism and equal rights as their preference. That doesn’t give you pause as a humanist. Instead, it’s let’s bet on human lives and secret wants that 10% (!) is rosy? That’s moral narcissism.
Just Quoting July 23rd, 2014 at 13:45
And by the way, “Basically, it offers a false trichotomy”… that phrasing was intentional self-parody, right? You were joking?
mea_mark July 21st, 2014 at 12:19
Until the Jews and the Palestinians can co-exist in peace, it would seem that separating them would be the prudent course of action to take. The killing and fighting of each other certainly isn’t accomplishing a whole lot.
mea_mark July 21st, 2014 at 12:19
Until the Jews and the Palestinians can co-exist in peace, it would seem that separating them would be the prudent course of action to take. The killing and fighting of each other certainly isn’t accomplishing a whole lot.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 12:55
Widen your thoughts, Mark. The problem is “nations” which were invented a few hundred years ago as a way to put up barriers to outside interference from neighboring groups, especially when you wanted to mistreat your own people.
But I just fell into the trap: “people” doesn’t really mean anything, does it? It’s one of those words like “God” or “good” or “purpose” that is used to induce head-nodding agreement.
If you call Jews a race, that’s a bad thing. If you call it a religion, how can there be atheist Jews? The bigger question is why we must divide up people by descent, by color, by sex, gender and age, on and on.
I’ll be looking for a wise response to this, not just more knee-jerk platitudes that lead to no solution at all.
Plunking down the Jews in Palestine rather than Uganda was a big mistake.
Stiff-necked, you might say…
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 14:47
“Plunking down the Jews in Palestine rather than Uganda was a big mistake.”
That’s just too insane for words.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 19:29
I like your picture. Fits your speech.
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 21:04
I’m glad you like my Marty Feldman avatar. Now, back to you. I’ve been reading some of your comments here and elsewhere on the net. Tell us about the crazed lunatic who flew his airplane into the IRS building. What do you think of him? Do you admire him?
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 22:32
I think I understand his motivation. Yours, not so much. Your use of crazed lunatic indicates you don’t speak psychology very well. Your desire to discredit me by trawling the net for my comments, however, brands you as immoral, eh? You, of course, have no history, being an anonymous coward.
Abby Normal July 22nd, 2014 at 01:40
You understand the motivation of a man who deliberately flew an airplane into a building, killing one person and injuring another thirteen?
Ormond Otvos July 22nd, 2014 at 03:04
Yes. You’ll mature someday and drop your ideological blinders.
Like the Palestinians, he was pushed beyond his limits. He wanted to make a statement with his last living act. Not so hard to understand, if you put yourself in his mind. But you have to be unafraid to do so, and I judge from your comments you’re still in your formative stages, casting about for some anchor.
There aren’t any.
Abby Normal July 22nd, 2014 at 07:16
Andrew Joseph Stack deliberately flew his airplane into the IRS building knowing people would be killed and injured. You say you understand his motivation. Do you approve of the act itself, Mr. Otvos?
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 12:55
Widen your thoughts, Mark. The problem is “nations” which were invented a few hundred years ago as a way to put up barriers to outside interference from neighboring groups, especially when you wanted to mistreat your own people.
But I just fell into the trap: “people” doesn’t really mean anything, does it? It’s one of those words like “God” or “good” or “purpose” that is used to induce head-nodding agreement.
If you call Jews a race, that’s a bad thing. If you call it a religion, how can there be atheist Jews? The bigger question is why we must divide up people by descent, by color, by sex, gender and age, on and on.
I’ll be looking for a wise response to this, not just more knee-jerk platitudes that lead to no solution at all.
Plunking down the Jews in Palestine rather than Uganda was a big mistake.
Stiff-necked, you might say…
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 14:47
“Plunking down the Jews in Palestine rather than Uganda was a big mistake.”
That’s just too insane for words.
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 19:29
I like your picture. Fits your speech.
Abby Normal July 21st, 2014 at 21:04
I’m glad you like my Marty Feldman avatar. Now, back to you. I’ve been reading some of your comments here and elsewhere on the net. Tell us about the crazed lunatic who flew his airplane into the IRS building. What do you think of him? Do you admire him?
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 22:32
I think I understand his motivation. Yours, not so much. Your use of crazed lunatic indicates you don’t speak psychology very well. Your desire to discredit me by trawling the net for my comments, however, brands you as immoral, eh? You, of course, have no history, being an anonymous coward. Of course, you could be doing it for money. I hear Israel pays well for what you do.
Just Quoting July 22nd, 2014 at 01:25
But because of things like praising ppl as heroes who fly planes into IRS buildings, you do realize that you’re a totally ridiculous, tinfoil-hat-wearing person whom no one can take seriously, right?
Ormond Otvos July 22nd, 2014 at 16:42
You two should get married.
Just Quoting July 23rd, 2014 at 02:09
Hey Ormond, I found a link listing all this weird stuff you’ve said, including all this antisemitic stuff. What’s that about?
http://davefromqueens2.blogspot.ca/2010/02/historic-troll-ormond-otvos.html
Just one sample:
“Is anti-Semitism an expression of the problems of polymorphous perversity in the sense Herbert Marcuse used it as deriving pleasure from being outside normative behavior? What’s the kink about being different? Does it get you high to be persecuted, make you feel special enough for the pain of societal exclusion? Or do you have to be taught that the pain makes you special, and special is good? …
Genocide is just cheap labeling for political correctness”
Abby Normal July 22nd, 2014 at 01:40
You understand the motivation of a man who deliberately flew an airplane into a building, killing one person and injuring another thirteen?
Ormond Otvos July 22nd, 2014 at 03:04
Yes. You’ll mature someday and drop your ideological blinders.
Like the Palestinians, he was pushed beyond his limits. He wanted to make a statement with his last living act. Not so hard to understand, if you put yourself in his mind. But you have to be unafraid to do so, and I judge from your comments you’re still in your formative stages, casting about for some anchor.
There aren’t any.
Abby Normal July 22nd, 2014 at 07:16
Andrew Joseph Stack deliberately flew his airplane into the IRS building knowing people would be killed and injured. You say you understand his motivation. Do you approve of the act itself, Mr. Otvos?
Ormond Otvos July 21st, 2014 at 12:57
That was a fine hasbara piece. Makes no sense, full of half-truths.
Foundryman July 21st, 2014 at 13:49
It’s interesting to think if you come up to me and punch me in the nose with your fist (palistinian rockets) I will have every right to wait a couple days to retaliate with a bazooka (Israeli army) to your head and if I miss and hit some kids playing ball with their mothers watching, I’ll somehow be in the right in killing all of them.
That’s after a third party, decades before took your 10 acres of land and gave it to me and told you you’ll share this one acre of desert with another hundred people just like you behind this fence. It will always be your fault if you ever feel oppressed and lash out at the powers that be, so don’t do that, just accept your lot in life that has been decided for you. Ah justice, you gotta love it.
The sooner we Americans see the reality of what WE created over there and the sooner we do not accept the killing of civilians in retaliation, the sooner we will see any chance at peace. We must withdraw our military support for Israel and put pressure on the far right government they have to start using diplomacy rather than bombs. Recognizing the rights of both sides is what America needs to do. We fail to do that when we arm one side with a bazooka while the other side have pea shooters. Pea shooters for both sides is a more practical way to detente.
Foundryman July 21st, 2014 at 13:49
It’s interesting to think if you come up to me and punch me in the nose with your fist (palistinian rockets) I will have every right to wait a couple days to retaliate with a bazooka (Israeli army) to your head and if I miss and hit some kids playing ball with their mothers watching, I’ll somehow be in the right in killing all of them.
That’s after a third party, decades before took your 10 acres of land and gave it to me and told you you’ll share this one acre of desert with another hundred people just like you behind this fence. It will always be your fault if you ever feel oppressed and lash out at the powers that be, so don’t do that, just accept your lot in life that has been decided for you. Ah justice, you gotta love it.
The sooner we Americans see the reality of what WE created over there and the sooner we do not accept the killing of civilians in retaliation, the sooner we will see any chance at peace. We must withdraw our military support for Israel and put pressure on the far right government they have to start using diplomacy rather than bombs. Recognizing the rights of both sides is what America needs to do. We fail to do that when we arm one side with a bazooka while the other side have pea shooters. Pea shooters for both sides is a more practical way to detente.
tumbled July 21st, 2014 at 14:45
Mark: how can you be a Jew and an atheist at the same time? May be being Jewish is not just belonging to a religion – it’s being part of a culture and a race. That’s where you fail to understand what being Muslim mean.
Yes, Muslims outnumber Jews by a huge margin, but so do Christians. So, if a Christian community in Rwanda or Iraq is being oppressed/persecuted, should US or France (being Christian majority nations) just let them in? They wouldn’t. Same go with Muslim countries. A Palestinian has nothing in common with an Indonesian or a Moroccan except for the religion (try putting a Russian, a Mexican, and a Southern Baptist in the same room – they all are Christians lol). Besides, why would a Palestinian just pack up and leave his ancestral homeland just to accommodate some Jews from New York?
Yes, some (or many) Palestinians may not want to live there. There are immigrants arriving every year in USA/Canada/EU from every parts of the world or greener pastures. I think the world community as a whole should find ways to easily accommodate those Palestinians who want to migrate.
There is a wrong perception in the western media that almost all Muslims want Israel to perish. They don’t, and I strongly believe that there is vested interest (especially within the religious right) to keep the conflict alive by fomenting hatred against Muslims. Most Muslims want a ‘viable’ Palestinian state alongside Israel. If Israeli government was serious, it would negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and withdraw the settlements from within West Bank (these are illegal anyway according to international law). The settlements take away vital resources from Palestinian land, steal water that wasn’t theirs, steal farmland that wasn’t theirs, and create resentment among Palestinians (and a lot of Muslims worldwide). Israel has to let the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza live with dignity. There are a lot of Jews working for/voicing their support for Palestinians (e.g., Noam Chomsky, Miko Peled just to name two), and they are well known in Muslim communities. There are others great souls working for human rights in general (Alan Colmes, Howard Zinn, Amy Goodman just to name a few).
I think there is a collective guilt in European/Christian psyche for what has been done to the Jews in Europe. That’s why they let them settle in Israel (ignoring any rights of the native population living there for generations). Countries that helped create this mess should come forth and fix this mess.
tumbled July 21st, 2014 at 14:45
Mark: how can you be a Jew and an atheist at the same time? May be being Jewish is not just belonging to a religion – it’s being part of a culture and a race. That’s where you fail to understand what being Muslim mean.
Yes, Muslims outnumber Jews by a huge margin, but so do Christians. So, if a Christian community in Rwanda or Iraq is being oppressed/persecuted, should US or France (being Christian majority nations) just let them in? They wouldn’t. Same go with Muslim countries. A Palestinian has nothing in common with an Indonesian or a Moroccan except for the religion (try putting a Russian, a Mexican, and a Southern Baptist in the same room – they all are Christians lol). Besides, why would a Palestinian just pack up and leave his ancestral homeland just to accommodate some Jews from New York?
Yes, some (or many) Palestinians may not want to live there. There are immigrants arriving every year in USA/Canada/EU from every parts of the world or greener pastures. I think the world community as a whole should find ways to easily accommodate those Palestinians who want to migrate.
There is a wrong perception in the western media that almost all Muslims want Israel to perish. They don’t, and I strongly believe that there is vested interest (especially within the religious right) to keep the conflict alive by fomenting hatred against Muslims. Most Muslims want a ‘viable’ Palestinian state alongside Israel. If Israeli government was serious, it would negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and withdraw the settlements from within West Bank (these are illegal anyway according to international law). The settlements take away vital resources from Palestinian land, steal water that wasn’t theirs, steal farmland that wasn’t theirs, and create resentment among Palestinians (and a lot of Muslims worldwide). Israel has to let the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza live with dignity. There are a lot of Jews working for/voicing their support for Palestinians (e.g., Noam Chomsky, Miko Peled just to name two), and they are well known in Muslim communities. There are others great souls working for human rights in general (Alan Colmes, Howard Zinn, Amy Goodman just to name a few).
I think there is a collective guilt in European/Christian psyche for what has been done to the Jews in Europe. That’s why they let them settle in Israel (ignoring any rights of the native population living there for generations). Countries that helped create this mess should come forth and fix this mess.