A Flag Is What We Make It
In the 21st century controversy over the legitimacy of the 19th century Confederate battle flag, one question remains unanswered: What does it mean to those who want to fly it?
The answer: Anything they want it to mean.
When we run our American flag up the flagpole at our house, it means we love the idea behind it, we love the look of the stars and stripes; we love how it waves in the breeze, telling us the wind direction, giving us an indication of the velocity. (A perk, I know.)
We believe the stories about Betsy Ross and the Star Spangled Banner. We love the image of the flag-raising over Iwo Jima. We pledge allegiance to our flag whenever the occasion arises. (Without endorsing the wholly unnecessary Red Scare defense “under God”, it should be said.)
My husband the Marine will not allow the flag to touch the ground and replaces it with a new one when it begins to look tattered.
But there are other Americans who use that same flag to make some pretty awful points. Hate groups bent on destroying the present government use it as a backdrop for photo ops.
Cliven Bundy uses it to try and save his ranch after refusing to pay his government lease for more than 20 years, enlisting flag-bearing militiamen hostile to the government to protect him from eviction.
The American flag is a symbol for every American, but, as symbols go, the symbolism is in the eye of the beholder.
So it goes with the Confederate flag. The KKK uses it interchangeably with the American flag. Militia groups and White Supremacist groups use it interchangeably with the American flag. Many Southerners fly it from their homes and stick it on their cars. It flies on public buildings, much to the displeasure of certain groups who see it as an affront.
Is it offensive? Is it racist? It can be, and to some it ever will be. Vile racism is, at the very least, inappropriate, and if a historic flag is co-opted to endorse hate, it wouldn’t be the first time.
For many years we’ve spent our winters in South Carolina. The confederate flag is everywhere and, as a Northerner indoctrinated in the offensive nature of what we called the Rebel flag, I found each instance shocking. But their heritage, I came to realize, is not my history, and nowhere am I more aware of it than when I wander through an old Southern cemetery.
These are their ancestors. Hundreds of thousands of their countrymen died fighting for a cause they may or may not have even understood. Were those young men–often just boys–fighting to ensure that wealthy plantation owners could keep their slave labor? Doubtful. More likely they saw themselves as freedom fighters making sacrifices in order to save their homes and form their own union. They fought in a terrible civil war and their side lost. Because real people in real families were affected forever, this is not a part of their history the modern South is willing to forget. And we as a nation have no right to ask it of them.
It’s not our place to decide what the Confederate flag means and who should be able to fly it. We’ve allowed our own American flag to be used and abused in such a way that by rights it should be nothing more than a meaningless piece of cloth. It’s much more than that because it means much more than that to each of us.
At different times in our history, parts of our country belonged to the English, the Spanish, the French. We fought them and won, and we still fly their flags in remembrance. It’s a part of our history.
The South once fought to belong to the Confederacy. They had their own flag. How can we recognize that part of our history without recognizing their flag? The answer is, we can’t. And the truth is, we shouldn’t.
(Cross-posted at Ramona’s Voices)
Click here for reuse options!Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: Ramona Grigg
Ramona Grigg is a freelance columnist and blogger living in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.. She owns the liberal-leaning blog, Ramona's Voices, and is a contributor to Liberaland and on the masthead at Dagblog.
62 responses to A Flag Is What We Make It
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Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 11:24
I don’t agree at all. The flag was carried into battle against the United States of America. The people who fought under it were trying to overthrow that government, they were traitors. It has no more honor or historical value that the the British, Japanese or Nazi flag.
In fact, because they were Americans who were trying to destroy the country, the confederate flag is worse. The flag is a symbol not of honor, valor or heroics, but of racism, rebellion and murder.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:13
They were traitors? What are they now? Is the entire South supposed to forget or suppress their own history in order to be a part of America again? They were a Confederacy. That’s their history. The Confederate flag was their symbol. That’s their history.
You can read into it what you want, but they’re Americans and that’s their history.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:22
Yeah, and if they want to force the rest of us to honor their history so what then? It’s my ancestors who repelled and defeated them, that’s the only American history that’s needs recognized and honored.
And yes, they were traitors, what else could they be?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 13:32
I don’t think they’re “forcing” you to do anything. I doubt if they even care what you think about the reasons why they feel the need to recognize the Confederate flag. (I doubt if they care what I think, either.)
But are you saying that once a battle is won, the victors get to decide which part of our history gets to be recognized or remembered? I doubt if Lincoln–or anyone else–would agree with you.
Chinese Democracy May 19th, 2014 at 23:25
fly a big swastika outside your house and see if your neighbors get what you are trying to say heh
hate groups use the 2 flags interchangeably
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 14:44
“They were traitors? What are they now?”
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were traitors. What are they now? Jefferson and Lee are dead traitors.
Jefferson and Lee were guilty of sedition. They knew full well that the Confederacy they created had one goal – to maintain slavery. They knew their actions would result in the loss of lives on both sides of the conflict. They forged ahead anyway and 620,000 lives were lost.
Southerners should not celebrate their Confederate past any more than Germans should celebrate their Nazi past. Most Germans have come to terms with their Nazi past, recognize it for the horrific tragedy it was, and shun all symbols of that terrible time. I believe most Southerners have done the same. It is time all Americans come to terms with the Confederacy, recognize it for what it clearly was, and shun its symbols, including the flag that was a symbol of that terrible part of our history. It is part of our history and we must remember it and learn from it. But none of us should celebrate it.
jasperjava May 20th, 2014 at 03:11
“It has no more honor or historical value that the the British, Japanese or Nazi flag.”
I get what you’re trying to say, but please don’t compare the Union Flag and the Hinomaru with the odious Nazi Blutflag. The British and Japanese flags represent great nations with valuable histories and strong democratic values, notwithstanding the errors they committed in the past. These nations deserve honor and respect, not despite their sordid past, but because they overcame it.
While the Nazi flag represented Germany during the Third Reich, it was an ideological symbol of warmongering, hatred and genocide. It symbolizes the darkest era in German history. Like the Confederate flag, it is irremediable.
It would have been something else if the Confederacy survived, and quickly changed their ways and joined the community of free and democratic nations. It didn’t. It was a nation founded on white supremacy, with no desire to redeem itself. Other nations have changed their flags because they were indelibly stained with ideological filth: the Republic of South Africa is an excellent example: the old flag stank of apartheid, and the new flag is a successful symbol of multicultural reconciliation.
The Confederate flag will always be associated with treason and slavery. I don’t care how many ignorant people try to white-wash it as a symbol of Southern heritage.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 11:24
I don’t agree at all. The flag was carried into battle against the United States of America. The people who fought under it were trying to overthrow that government, they were traitors. It has no more honor or historical value that the the British, Japanese or Nazi flag.
In fact, because they were Americans who were trying to destroy the country, the confederate flag is worse. The flag is a symbol not of honor, valor or heroics, but of racism, rebellion and murder.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:13
They were traitors? What are they now? Is the entire South supposed to forget or suppress their own history in order to be a part of America again? They were a Confederacy. That’s their history. The Confederate flag was their symbol. That’s their history.
You can read into it what you want, but they’re Americans and that’s their history.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:22
Yeah, and if they want to force the rest of us to honor their history so what then? It’s my ancestors who repelled and defeated them, that’s the only American history that’s needs recognized and honored.
And yes, they were traitors, what else could they be?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 13:32
I don’t think they’re “forcing” you to do anything. I doubt if they even care what you think about the reasons why they feel the need to recognize the Confederate flag. (I doubt if they care what I think, either.)
But are you saying that once a battle is won, the victors get to decide which part of our history gets to be recognized or remembered? I doubt if Lincoln–or anyone else–would agree with you.
Chinese Democracy May 19th, 2014 at 23:25
fly a big swastika outside your house and see if your neighbors get what you are trying to say heh
hate groups use the 2 flags interchangeably
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 14:44
“They were traitors? What are they now?”
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were traitors. What are they now? Jefferson and Lee are dead traitors.
Jefferson and Lee were guilty of sedition. They knew full well that the Confederacy they created had one goal – to maintain slavery. They knew their actions would result in the loss of lives on both sides of the conflict. They forged ahead anyway and 620,000 lives were lost.
Southerners should not celebrate their Confederate past any more than Germans should celebrate their Nazi past. Most Germans have come to terms with their Nazi past, recognize it for the horrific tragedy it was, and shun all symbols of that terrible time. I believe most Southerners have done the same. It is time all Americans come to terms with the Confederacy, recognize it for what it clearly was, and shun its symbols, including the flag that was a symbol of that terrible part of our history. It is part of our history and we must remember it and learn from it. But none of us should celebrate it.
jasperjava May 20th, 2014 at 03:11
“It has no more honor or historical value that the the British, Japanese or Nazi flag.”
I get what you’re trying to say, but please don’t compare the Union Flag and the Hinomaru with the odious Nazi Blutflag. The British and Japanese flags represent great nations with valuable histories and strong democratic values, notwithstanding the errors they committed in the past. These nations deserve honor and respect, not despite their sordid past, but because they overcame it.
While the Nazi flag represented Germany during the Third Reich, it was an ideological symbol of warmongering, hatred and genocide. It symbolizes the darkest era in German history. Like the Confederate flag, it is irremediable.
It would have been something else if the Confederacy survived, and quickly changed their ways and joined the community of free and democratic nations. It didn’t. It was a nation founded on white supremacy, with no desire to redeem itself. Other nations have changed their flags because they were indelibly stained with ideological filth: the Republic of South Africa is an excellent example: the old flag stank of apartheid, and the new flag is a successful symbol of multicultural reconciliation.
The Confederate flag will always be associated with treason and slavery. I don’t care how many ignorant people try to white-wash it as a symbol of Southern heritage.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 11:28
The Confederate flag is a symbol of hatred. The Civil War was fought over slavery, pure and simple. The Confederate flag is no less a symbol of hatred than the flag of the Third Reich. You say the average Confederate soldier did not fight to preserve slavery. Possibly. Perhaps it is also true the average German soldier did not know of the concentration camps. Does that make the Third Reich any less evil? Dwight D. Eisenhower, after the war, made German townspeople tour the concentration camps so they would see the horror their government had inflicted upon the human race. The south needs to accept, once and for all, that the Civil War was about enslaving human beings. The Confederate flag represents that hideous, horrific chapter in our history. Please don’t join those who try to rewrite history by telling us the Civil War was fought over “southern heritage.”
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:09
You’re putting words into my words, Jonathan. Nowhere did I say the Civil War was fought over southern heritage. I know what the fight was about. You could say the entire South “represents that hideous, horrific chapter in our history” and you wouldn’t be far from wrong. So then the question becomes “what do we do about the entire South”?
Their heritage is that they seceded, the fought to keep their nation separate, and they used a battle flag as a symbol of their unity. It’s a part of their history and my point is that a flag is what you make of it. You say it’s a symbol of hate, and often it is. But not always. Which is what I meant when I used our own flag as an example of hateful misuse of a national symbol.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 11:28
The Confederate flag is a symbol of hatred. The Civil War was fought over slavery, pure and simple. The Confederate flag is no less a symbol of hatred than the flag of the Third Reich. You say the average Confederate soldier did not fight to preserve slavery. Possibly. Perhaps it is also true the average German soldier did not know of the concentration camps. Does that make the Third Reich any less evil? Dwight D. Eisenhower, after the war, made German townspeople tour the concentration camps so they would see the horror their government had inflicted upon the human race. The south needs to accept, once and for all, that the Civil War was about enslaving human beings. The Confederate flag represents that hideous, horrific chapter in our history. Please don’t join those who try to rewrite history by telling us the Civil War was fought over “southern heritage.”
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:09
You’re putting words into my words, Jonathan. Nowhere did I say the Civil War was fought over southern heritage. I know what the fight was about. You could say the entire South “represents that hideous, horrific chapter in our history” and you wouldn’t be far from wrong. So then the question becomes “what do we do about the entire South”?
Their heritage is that they seceded, they fought to keep their nation separate, and they used a battle flag as a symbol of their unity. It’s a part of their history and my point is that a flag is what you make of it. You say it’s a symbol of hate, and often it is. But not always. Which is what I meant when I used our own flag as an example of hateful misuse of a national symbol.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 11:29
How would anyone react if for two days out of the year, the flags around the Washington Memorial were changed to the confederate flag to commemorate some big battle the south won?
The flag is what we make it, is BS!!
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 11:56
Why would the flags be changed around the Washington Memorial? Which two days? I don’t get it. The fact is, the Confederacy existed and so did their flag. We didn’t de-legitimize the entire South because they fought against us and lost. We co-exist (not always well, but we do co-exist) and accept everything about them but the part of their history that is their flag. That makes no sense to me.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:04
I was making a what if, question. If the confederate flag is what we make it, and some southern politician decides to honor the memory of some battle, (ever been to Stone Mountain?)…and he wants the flag raised around Washington, if it’s what we make it then, why not right?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:25
I’ve never been to Stone Mountain but I’ve been to Gettysburg and Shiloh and other Civil War sites. Yankees and Rebels are buried there, often side by side in unmarked graves, and every soldier is honored, no matter which side they fought on.
The narrative on all our nation’s Civil War battlefields (which are, as you know, national cemeteries) is that while Americans were pitted against Americans, every death was a tragedy.
Ever read the Gettysburg Address?
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 11:29
How would anyone react if for two days out of the year, the flags around the Washington Memorial were changed to the confederate flag to commemorate some big battle the south won?
The flag is what we make it, is BS!!
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 11:56
Why would the flags be changed around the Washington Memorial? Which two days? I don’t get it. The fact is, the Confederacy existed and so did their flag. We didn’t de-legitimize the entire South because they fought against us and lost. We co-exist (not always well, but we do co-exist) and accept everything about them but the part of their history that is their flag. That makes no sense to me.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:04
I was making a what if, question. If the confederate flag is what we make it, and some southern politician decides to honor the memory of some battle, (ever been to Stone Mountain?)…and he wants the flag raised around Washington, if it’s what we make it then, why not right?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:25
I’ve never been to Stone Mountain but I’ve been to Gettysburg and Shiloh and other Civil War sites. Yankees and Rebels are buried there, often side by side in unmarked graves, and every soldier is honored, no matter which side they fought on.
The narrative on all our nation’s Civil War battlefields (which are, as you know, national cemeteries) is that while Americans were pitted against Americans, every death was a tragedy.
Ever read the Gettysburg Address?
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 11:36
“The South once fought to belong to the Confederacy. They had their own
flag. How can we recognize that part of our history without recognizing
their flag? The answer is, we can’t. And the truth is, we shouldn’t.”
Substitute “Germany” for South and “Third Reich” for Confederacy in the closing statement of your editorial.
Do you still stand behind it? If you do, shame on you.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:15
I’ll repeat what I wrote to your comment on my blog, because there is no comparison between a Nazi flag and a Confederate flag:
Not the same thing at all. The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a
nation. The Confederate States of America was a separate nation from
1861until April, 1865, when Lee surrendered and it was dissolved.
The confederacy was made up of slave states, to be sure, and the flag
represented those states, but when the war was over, Northern leaders
made it clear that those southerners who lost their lives during the
Civil War were to be honored as soldiers. There was to be no
desecration of graves or tombs. Each state kept its name. The citizens
of the Confederacy once again became American citizens.
Their flag was a nation’s symbol for those few years and there’s no getting
around the fact that it means different things to different people. But
to equate it to a Nazi flag is nowhere near accurate.
arc99 May 19th, 2014 at 12:19
In Nazi Germany, a Jewish person had one choice. Die.
In the Confederacy, a black person had two choices. Be a slave or die.
That is the only difference I see.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:28
A separate nation?… Because they said so? That makes it legitimate today? Whatever.
The Nazi flag represents an enemy, the confederate flag represents an enemy, that’s the equivalency.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 13:19
Honoring the southerners as soldiers was something Grant negotiated with Lee for terms of surrender. He did it in a way the North couldn’t backtrack. Some of those concessions were met with virulent opposition from many in the North. But they recognized some appeasement was necessary to unite and rebuild the country.
In any case, that was then, what’s happening in the country today by some using that same flag as a symbol TODAY is why many, like me, are opposed to any attempt to honor or fly that flag of treason. To accept it as “what we make it” would be to accept the flag as a symbol of respect, it does not deserve to be respected.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 13:49
“Not the same thing at all. The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a
nation. The Confederate States of America was a separate nation from
1861until April, 1865, when Lee surrendered and it was dissolved.”
The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a nation? Romona, that statement is wildly incorrect. The fact is, the Nazi flag WAS the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 until 1945. Facts are facts, Romona.
You can deny it all you want, but the Nazi flag WAS the national flag of Germany from 1935 until 1945.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 11:36
“The South once fought to belong to the Confederacy. They had their own
flag. How can we recognize that part of our history without recognizing
their flag? The answer is, we can’t. And the truth is, we shouldn’t.”
Substitute “Germany” for South and “Third Reich” for Confederacy in the closing statement of your editorial.
Do you still stand behind it? If you do, shame on you.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 12:15
I’ll repeat what I wrote to your comment on my blog, because there is no comparison between a Nazi flag and a Confederate flag:
Not the same thing at all. The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a
nation. The Confederate States of America was a separate nation from
1861until April, 1865, when Lee surrendered and it was dissolved.
The confederacy was made up of slave states, to be sure, and the flag
represented those states, but when the war was over, Northern leaders
made it clear that those southerners who lost their lives during the
Civil War were to be honored as soldiers. There was to be no
desecration of graves or tombs. Each state kept its name. The citizens
of the Confederacy once again became American citizens.
Their flag was a nation’s symbol for those few years and there’s no getting
around the fact that it means different things to different people. But
to equate it to a Nazi flag is nowhere near accurate.
arc99 May 19th, 2014 at 12:19
In Nazi Germany, a Jewish person had one choice. Die.
In the Confederacy, a black person had two choices. Be a slave or die.
That is the only difference I see.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 12:28
A separate nation?… Because they said so? That makes it legitimate today? Whatever.
The Nazi flag represents an enemy, the confederate flag represents an enemy, that’s the equivalency.
Foundryman May 19th, 2014 at 13:19
Honoring the southerners as soldiers was something Grant negotiated with Lee for terms of surrender. He did it in a way the North couldn’t backtrack. Some of those concessions were met with virulent opposition from many in the North. But they recognized some appeasement was necessary to unite and rebuild the country.
In any case, that was then, what’s happening in the country today by some using that same flag as a symbol TODAY is why many, like me, are opposed to any attempt to honor or fly that flag of treason. To accept it as “what we make it” would be to accept the flag as a symbol of respect, it does not deserve to be respected.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 13:49
“Not the same thing at all. The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a
nation. The Confederate States of America was a separate nation from
1861until April, 1865, when Lee surrendered and it was dissolved.”
The Nazi flag represents a movement, not a nation? Romona, that statement is wildly incorrect. The fact is, the Nazi flag WAS the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 until 1945. Facts are facts, Romona.
You can deny it all you want, but the Nazi flag WAS the national flag of Germany from 1935 until 1945.
arc99 May 19th, 2014 at 11:54
Some people are surprised when this 61 year old black man tells them that I have pointedly never seen the movie Gone With The Wind.
I have no interest in patronizing an obscenity which celebrates a culture in which my ancestors were subhuman beasts of burden and where one of the memorable lines in the movie is Clark Gable referring to Butterfly McQueen as an “hysterical darkie”.
The same misplaced sentimentality over that movie is what I see with the Confederate battle flag. That flag is part of our history to the same extent that the memorial at the site of the Sand Creek massacre of native Americans is a part of our history. It is a grim reminder of what should never happen again. It is not something to be celebrated.
I suggest everyone go read the secession statements of the various Confederate states, especially South Carolina and Texas. Yes that flag is a part of our history, just as any number of moral abominations are part of our history. Remember those abominations? Yes. Revere and respect them? Never!
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 14:14
arc, I understand what you’re saying. I don’t have to respect the Confederate flag in order to try and understand why so many Southerners feel the need to keep it flying. While many in the South are enlightened enough to feel shame about slavery, they still don’t see that flag as anything more than the flag under which their own family members fought and died. They see its removal as an erasure of their own history, while others see its removal as a welcome sign that that part of our history is behind us.
Even after all these years, it’s still an issue laden with emotion. I simply wanted to look at all sides and get a discussion going. So far it’s been interesting!
arc99 May 19th, 2014 at 11:54
Some people are surprised when this 61 year old black man tells them that I have pointedly never seen the movie Gone With The Wind.
I have no interest in patronizing an obscenity which celebrates a culture in which my ancestors were subhuman beasts of burden and where one of the memorable lines in the movie is Clark Gable referring to Butterfly McQueen as an “hysterical darkie”.
The same misplaced sentimentality over that movie is what I see with the Confederate battle flag. That flag is part of our history to the same extent that the memorial at the site of the Sand Creek massacre of native Americans is a part of our history. It is a grim reminder of what should never happen again. It is not something to be celebrated.
I suggest everyone go read the secession statements of the various Confederate states, especially South Carolina and Texas. Yes that flag is a part of our history, just as any number of moral abominations are part of our history. Remember those abominations? Yes. Revere and respect them? Never!
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 14:14
arc, I understand what you’re saying. I don’t have to respect the Confederate flag in order to try and understand why so many Southerners feel the need to keep it flying. While many in the South are enlightened enough to feel shame about slavery, they still don’t see that flag as anything more than the flag under which their own family members fought and died. They see its removal as an erasure of their own history, while others see its removal as a welcome sign that that part of our history is behind us.
Even after all these years, it’s still an issue laden with emotion. I simply wanted to look at all sides and get a discussion going. So far it’s been interesting!
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 14:13
Romona, the title of your opinion piece is “A Flag Is What We Make It.”
What do you make of the Nazi flag that became the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945?
You have attempted to rescue the Confederate flag from the ash heap of history by claiming it was the “national” flag of the Confederacy from 1861 to 1865.
It is an incontrovertible fact, Romona, that the Nazi flag was the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945. Again, that is an incontrovertible fact.
So, tell us again why the “national” flag of the Confederacy, which existed to keep human beings in slavery, is different from the official, national flag of Germany which, from 1935 to 1945, murdered human beings it felt were inferior?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 15:20
Here’s where I see the differences, Jonathan: The Nazi flag was a party flag imposed on Germany by a mad dictator. When the war was over and Hitler and the Nazi party were no more, there wasn’t a German in the land who wanted to retain the Swastika as a symbol of anything.
The South, on the other hand, mourned the loss of the Confederacy and to this day many of the southern state flags still include a variation of early Confederate flags. They don’t include it because they’re all racist pigs wanting to keep hate going. They do, in fact, see it as a part of their heritage. A lot of people don’t happen to see it that way, however, which is why I chose the title, “A Flag Is What We Make It.”
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 15:57
Romona, Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazi party received more votes than any other party. The Nazi’s formed a coalition with the DNVP, the German National People’s Party, for a working majority. Hitler, who was already Chancellor, was then had the votes to pass the Enabling Act, which gave him the right to pass laws without the involvement of the Reichstag. The Enabling Act was passed by the Reichstag and the Reichsrat and signed into law by President Paul von HIndenburg. It effectively made Hitler a dictator – but it was all done legally.
Did Hitler “impose” the Nazi flag on Germany against the will of the people? No – he had the legal authority to do so by virtue of the election of 1933 and the Enabling Act passed by the Reichstag and signed into law by President von Hindenburg.
The Nazi flag was the legal, official, flag on the German Government from 1935 to 1945.
The crux of your argument has been that the Confederate flag and Nazi flags could not be compared because the Confederate flag was the “national” flag on the Confederacy and the Nazi flag was the flag of a “movement,” not the national flag of Germany.
As a student of history, I find it difficult to let historical inaccuracies pass unchallenged. History is too important.
Both flags, the Confederate flag and the German Flag of 1935 to 1945, both represented the worst kind of hatred and violence.
Now you are asserting that ” . . . there wasn’t a German in the land who wanted to retain the Swastika as a symbol of anything.The South, on the other hand, mourned the loss of the Confederacy . . .”
Actually, there were Germans who mourned the loss of the Nazi Party and they exist to this day. Thankfully, the vast majority of Germans recognize their Nazi past for what it was and want nothing to do with it, including the Nazi flag that was their national flag for ten years.
I find it terribly sad, and deepl;y disturbing, that some Southerners still have not come to terms with their Confederate past by recognizing it for what it was – and rejecting its symbols, as the Germans have done by rejecting all symbols of their Nazi past.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 19:07
Again, Jonathan, the point is there are many people in the South who want to be able to fly the Confederate flag. You may find it deeply disturbing but that’s because you can only associate the flag with a hateful past.
I’m telling you that not everybody in the South associates it with hate or with racism. They associate it with their great-great-grandaddies who fought and possibly died in the Civil War.
They’ve used it in music, in art and in TV shows. For years.
Now they even want to take it off of the General Lee. So again I’ll say, a flag is what you make it:
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 22:19
“Again, Jonathan, the point is there are many people in the South who want to be able to fly the Confederate flag. You may find it deeply disturbing but that’s because you can only associate the flag with a hateful past.”
Of course I find it deeply disturbing. Slavery and white supremacy are what the Civil War was all about. The continuation of slavery and white supremacy is why the South seceded. Slavery and white supremacy is why the Confederacy was formed. Slavery and white supremacy are what that flag represents.
“I’m telling you that not everybody in the South associates it with hate or with racism. They associate it with their great-great-grandaddies who fought and possibly died in the Civil War.”
The fact that their “great-great-grandaddies fought and possibly died” in the Civil War does not excuse the racism, hatred, violence and brutality that the Confederacy fought so hard to protect.
The present-day population of Germany had fathers and grandfathers who fought for Adolf Hitler. They realize and acknowledge their fathers and grandfathers fought for a regime that murdered millions of innocent people. They want nothing to do with the flag that represented their country for ten years, from 1935 to 1945. They have come to terms with their past. It’s time the American South did the same thing with Confederacy and its flags and symbols.
“Now they even want to take it off of the Dukes of Hazzard’s General Lee.”
That’s the best you can come up with? A photo from a low-brow TV comedy from the late 1970s to early 1980s? That’s what it was. A low-brow TV show. Bo and Luke Duke driving their Dodge Charger like maniacs to escape Sheriff Rosco Coltrane
“So again I’ll say, a flag is what you make it.”
Yes, that’s what you’ve been saying. So I’ll ask again. What do you make of the Nazi Flag? You tried to squeeze out of that one by saying the two flags cannot be compared.
You tried to tell us the Nazi flag was never the flag of Germany. So much for your knowledge of history. The Nazi flag was, in fact, the flag of Germany, from 1935 to 1945. Both flags, the German flag of 1935 to 1945 and the Confederate flag represented brutal, violent regimes. Regimes that murdered and enslaved millions of innocent human beings.
And you try to rationalize it with a photo of a ridiculous old TV show and by repeating your ridiculous mantra: “A flag is what you make it.”
How sad. How very, very sad.
Ramona May 20th, 2014 at 00:08
Jonathan, throughout this whole thing I’ve never tried to rationalize anything. Just trying to make sense of it.
I used the Dukes of Hazzard photo to show how prevalent the flag’s usage has been over the years. It’s been in songs, on album covers, in gift shops. . .everywhere. There is an appeal to it that you and I may not be able to understand but it’s there and it’s obviously not going away.
I find the whole thing fascinating, which is why I wrote about it in the first place. I could have written it as a rant, but I chose to explore a long-lived phenomenon, instead, and try and make sense of it.
Now, you can go on shooting the messenger if you want, or you can join me in trying to figure out what’s been going on for a century and a half to keep this flag going. That might be a lot more interesting.
Jonathan May 20th, 2014 at 06:08
I know what’s going on. There is no mystery. Racism and white supremacy are still running rampant in the South. It exists in the North as well, of course, but it is far more prevalent in the South. The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of that racism and white supremacy. There are also the revisionists who insist the Civil War was not fought over slavery but for “states rights.” That, of course, is nonsense. The Confederacy was created by the South to preserve slavery.
There’s no mystery, here Romona. Nothing to try to figure out. History is quite clear what happened before the Civil War and what’s been going on since. The formation of the KKK. Jim Crow Laws. Segregation. Lynchings. Murders of civil rights leaders.
The Confederate battle flag represents the slavery, racism, brutality, violence and murder that the Confederacy was created to preserve. The vast majority of people know that. I’m sorry the rest don’t. I sincerely hope that someday the people who cling to that hateful flag will recognize the error of their ways and regard it with the same contempt the people of Germany and the world regard the Nazi flag.
Ramona May 20th, 2014 at 11:18
“The Confederate battle flag represents the slavery, racism, brutality,
violence and murder that the Confederacy was created to preserve. The
vast majority of people know that. I’m sorry the rest don’t. I
sincerely hope that someday the people who cling to that hateful flag
will recognize the error of their ways and regard it with the same
contempt the people of Germany and the world regard the Nazi flag.”
You certainly have a right to your opinion, but you seem not to be willing or capable of considering any other interpretation. Not everybody sees it as you do. That doesn’t make you better and them worse. Just different.
Jonathan May 20th, 2014 at 17:49
“You certainly have a right to your opinion, but you seem not to be willing or capable of considering any other interpretation.”
There are absolutes, Romona. The Third Reich was evil. There is no other interpretation.
The Confederacy was evil. There is no other interpretation. They felt it was their right to buy human beings and keep them as slaves. To whip them. To sell them to the highest bidder. To keep them in chains. To work them all day in the hot sun. To treat them far worse than animals. That is why the Confederacy was formed – to preserve that barbaric, horrific, EVIL. After the North burned their evil empire to the ground, some Southerners created the KKK. They established Jim Crow laws. They lynched African-Americans. The murdered them. They murdered civil rights workers. The Confederate battle flag is the symbol of that evil belief system.
To mourn the loss of the Confederacy or to fly its flag is beyond contemptible.
Have you noticed that not ONE person agreed with you on Alan’s blog? Not one. Frankly, I’m more than a little disappointed Alan approved your piece for publication on his site. Either he didn’t read it – or he has incredibly low standards for contributors.
In any event, your “opinion piece” has disappeared from the front page of Alan’s blog. No one is reading it and I have no interest in continuing a dialogue with you. The last word is yours – but you may rest assured I will not read it.
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 14:13
Romona, the title of your opinion piece is “A Flag Is What We Make It.”
What do you make of the Nazi flag that became the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945?
You have attempted to rescue the Confederate flag from the ash heap of history by claiming it was the “national” flag of the Confederacy from 1861 to 1865.
It is an incontrovertible fact, Romona, that the Nazi flag was the official, national flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945. Again, that is an incontrovertible fact.
So, tell us again why the “national” flag of the Confederacy, which existed to keep human beings in slavery, is different from the official, national flag of Germany which, from 1935 to 1945, murdered human beings it felt were inferior?
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 15:20
Here’s where I see the differences, Jonathan: The Nazi flag was a party flag imposed on Germany by a mad dictator. When the war was over and Hitler and the Nazi party were no more, there wasn’t a German in the land who wanted to retain the Swastika as a symbol of anything.
The South, on the other hand, mourned the loss of the Confederacy and to this day many of the southern state flags still include a variation of early Confederate flags. They don’t include it because they’re all racist pigs wanting to keep hate going. They do, in fact, see it as a part of their heritage. A lot of people don’t happen to see it that way, however, which is why I chose the title, “A Flag Is What We Make It.”
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 15:57
Romona, Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazi party received more votes than any other party. The Nazi’s formed a coalition with the DNVP, the German National People’s Party, for a working majority. Hitler, who was already Chancellor, then had the votes to pass the Enabling Act, which gave him the right to pass laws without the involvement of the Reichstag. The Enabling Act was passed by the Reichstag and the Reichsrat and signed into law by President Paul von Hindenburg. It effectively made Hitler a dictator – but it was all done according to German law.
Did Hitler “impose” the Nazi flag on Germany against the will of the people? No – he had the legal authority to do so by virtue of the election of 1933 and the Enabling Act passed by the Reichstag and signed into law by President von Hindenburg. Remember, Hitler was a very popular figure in 1933.
The Nazi flag was the legal, official, flag of Germany from 1935 to 1945.
The crux of your argument has been that the Confederate and Nazi flags can not be compared because the Confederate flag was the “national” flag of the Confederacy and the Nazi flag was the flag of a “movement,” not the national flag of Germany.
As a student of history, I find it difficult to let historical inaccuracies pass unchallenged. History is too important.
Both flags, the Confederate flag and the German Flag of 1935 to 1945, both represent the worst kind of hatred, brutality and violence.
Now you are asserting that ” . . . there wasn’t a German in the land who wanted to retain the Swastika as a symbol of anything.The South, on the other hand, mourned the loss of the Confederacy . . .”
Actually, there were Germans who mourned the loss of the Nazi Party and they exist to this day. Thankfully, the vast majority of Germans recognize their Nazi past for what it was and want nothing to do with it, including the Nazi flag that was their national flag for ten years.
I find it terribly sad, and deeply disturbing, that some Southerners still refuse to come to terms with their Confederate past by recognizing it for what it was – and rejecting its symbols, as the Germans have done by rejecting all symbols of their Nazi past.
Ramona May 19th, 2014 at 19:07
Again, Jonathan, the point is there are many people in the South who want to be able to fly the Confederate flag. You may find it deeply disturbing but that’s because you can only associate the flag with a hateful past.
I’m telling you that not everybody in the South associates it with hate or with racism. They associate it with their great-great-grandaddies who fought and possibly died in the Civil War.
They’ve used it in music, in art and in TV shows. For years.
Now they even want to take it off of the Dukes of Hazzard’s General Lee. So again I’ll say, a flag is what you make it:
Jonathan May 19th, 2014 at 22:19
“Again, Jonathan, the point is there are many people in the South who want to be able to fly the Confederate flag. You may find it deeply disturbing but that’s because you can only associate the flag with a hateful past.”
Of course I find it deeply disturbing. Slavery and white supremacy are what the Civil War was all about. The continuation of slavery and white supremacy are why the South seceded. Slavery and white supremacy are why the Confederacy was formed. Slavery and white supremacy are what that flag represents.
“I’m telling you that not everybody in the South associates it with hate or with racism. They associate it with their great-great-grandaddies who fought and possibly died in the Civil War.”
The fact that their “great-great-grandaddies fought and possibly died” in the Civil War does not excuse the racism, hatred, violence and brutality that the Confederacy fought so hard to preserve.
The present-day population of Germany had fathers and grandfathers who fought for Adolf Hitler. They realize and acknowledge their fathers and grandfathers fought for a regime that murdered millions of innocent people. They want nothing to do with the flag that represented their country for ten years, from 1935 to 1945. They have come to terms with their past. It’s time the American South did the same thing with the Confederacy and its flags and symbols.
“Now they even want to take it off of the Dukes of Hazzard’s General Lee.”
That’s the best you can come up with? A photo from a low-brow TV comedy from the late 1970s to early 1980s? That’s what it was. A ridiculous, low-brow TV show. Bo and Luke Duke driving an orange Dodge Charger like maniacs each week, accompanied by banjo music, to escape the farcical Sheriff Rosco P. Coltrane.
“So again I’ll say, a flag is what you make it.”
Yes, that’s what you’ve been saying. So I’ll ask again. What do you make of the Nazi Flag? You tried to squeeze out of that one by saying the two flags cannot be compared.
You tried to tell us the Nazi flag was never the flag of Germany. So much for your knowledge of history. The Nazi flag was, in fact, the flag of Germany, from 1935 to 1945. Both flags, the German flag of 1935 to 1945 and the Confederate flag represented brutal, violent regimes. Regimes that murdered and enslaved millions of innocent human beings.
And you try to rationalize it with a photo of a 35 year-old TV show and by repeating your ridiculous mantra: “A flag is what you make it.”
How sad. How very, very sad.
Ramona May 20th, 2014 at 00:08
Jonathan, throughout this whole thing I’ve never tried to rationalize anything. Just trying to make sense of it.
I used the Dukes of Hazzard photo to show how prevalent the flag’s usage has been over the years. It’s been in songs, on album covers, in gift shops. . .everywhere. There is an appeal to it that you and I may not be able to understand but it’s there and it’s obviously not going away.
I find the whole thing fascinating, which is why I wrote about it in the first place. I could have written it as a rant, but I chose to explore a long-lived phenomenon, instead, and try and make sense of it.
Now, you can go on shooting the messenger if you want, or you can join me in trying to figure out what’s been going on for a century and a half to keep this flag going. That might be a lot more interesting.
Jonathan May 20th, 2014 at 06:08
I know what’s going on. There is no mystery. Racism and white supremacy are still running rampant in the South. It exists in the North as well, of course, but it is far more prevalent in the South. The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of that racism and white supremacy. There are also the revisionists who insist the Civil War was not fought over slavery but for “states rights.” That, of course, is nonsense. The Confederacy was created by the South to preserve slavery.
There’s no mystery, here Romona. Nothing to try to figure out. History is quite clear what happened before the Civil War and what’s been going on since. The formation of the KKK. Jim Crow Laws. Segregation. Lynchings. Murders of civil rights leaders.
The Confederate battle flag represents the slavery, racism, brutality, violence and murder that the Confederacy was created to preserve. The vast majority of people know that. I’m sorry the rest don’t. I sincerely hope that someday the people who cling to that hateful flag will recognize the error of their ways and regard it with the same contempt the people of Germany and the world regard the Nazi flag.
Ramona May 20th, 2014 at 11:18
“The Confederate battle flag represents the slavery, racism, brutality,
violence and murder that the Confederacy was created to preserve. The
vast majority of people know that. I’m sorry the rest don’t. I
sincerely hope that someday the people who cling to that hateful flag
will recognize the error of their ways and regard it with the same
contempt the people of Germany and the world regard the Nazi flag.”
You certainly have a right to your opinion, but you seem not to be willing or capable of considering any other interpretation. Not everybody sees it as you do. That doesn’t make you better and them worse. Just different.
Jonathan May 20th, 2014 at 17:49
“You certainly have a right to your opinion, but you seem not to be willing or capable of considering any other interpretation.”
There are absolutes, Romona. The Third Reich was evil. There is no other interpretation.
The Confederacy was evil. There is no other interpretation. They felt it was their right to buy human beings and keep them as slaves. To whip them. To sell them to the highest bidder. To keep them in chains. To work them all day in the hot sun. To treat them far worse than animals. That is why the Confederacy was formed – to preserve that barbaric, horrific, EVIL. After the North burned their evil empire to the ground, some Southerners created the KKK. They established Jim Crow laws. They lynched African-Americans. They murdered them. They murdered civil rights workers. The Confederate battle flag is the symbol of that evil belief system. It remains popular with secessionists. With bigots. With Tea-Party radicals. With the KKK. And with those who are totally ignorant of history and believe in the fanciful and farcical “Gone With the Wind” view of the old South.
To mourn the loss of the Confederacy or to fly its flag is beyond contemptible.
Have you noticed that not ONE person agreed with you on Alan’s blog? Not one. Frankly, I’m more than a little disappointed Alan approved your piece for publication on his site. Either he didn’t read it – or he has incredibly low standards for contributors.
In any event, your “opinion piece” has disappeared from the front page of Alan’s blog. No one is reading it and I have no interest in continuing a dialogue with you. The last word is yours – but you may rest assured I will not read it.
jason May 22nd, 2014 at 19:32
Respect for the US Flag? Freedom to do something controversial? A husband that has served? Understanding what the symbol means to the culture? Heck, understanding for the sake of understanding? The only liberal concept in this post is the re-definition, or should I say projection of, an outside meaning on to a symbol opposed to understanding what it means. Kinda changing the symbolic meaning of marriage. None of which you are advocating in your post.
BTW Many of us will walk past a flag with an image of a red, white, blue donkey and recall the hate and disdain for which it stands.
jason May 22nd, 2014 at 19:32
Respect for the US Flag? Freedom to do something controversial? A husband that has served? Understanding what the symbol means to the culture? Heck, understanding for the sake of understanding? The only liberal concept in this post is the re-definition, or should I say projection of, an outside meaning on to a symbol opposed to understanding what it means. Kinda changing the symbolic meaning of marriage. None of which you are advocating in your post.
BTW Many of us will walk past a flag with an image of a red, white, blue donkey and recall the hate and disdain for which it stands.